Freya Graf:

This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets. Welcome. Welcome, my lovely lumps, or should I say lovely labs? I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge. We're gonna womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health, and everything in between. Your legs. Oh. Can't help myself. Anyway, we're gonna have vag-loads of real chats with real people about real the sex ed that you never had and have a bloody good laugh while you're at it.

Freya Graf:

Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this, The Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in Naarm, And I pay respect to their elders past, present, and emerging. Now, if you're all ready, let's flap and do this. Oh my god. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. It's my podcast. I'm leaving it in. Hello.

Freya Graf:

Hello, my labial love bugs. Welcome back To the lounge where today we'll be delving into the topic of beauty, body image, the male gaze, gender, and how all of these Intersect in ways that we don't even fucking realize in our daily lives. My guest today, one, Jesse Neland, has been on the pod before, Back when I first started a couple of years ago, actually. So I'd highly recommend going and checking out that episode too, which was all about body image and body neutrality. And just to give you a rundown on Jesse in case you haven't heard that one, Jesse is a queer and non binary body image coach, Speaker and author of the book Body Neutral, a revolutionary guide to overcoming body image issues. Very important. Go check it out. Through a concept called body neutrality, which we cover in the other episode, The practice of consciously stripping our bodies of all false or inflated meaning, biases, and moral significance.

Freya Graf:

Jesse is committed both to helping individuals feel more empowered, worthy, and confident in themselves, and to advancing collective liberation and healing from systems Of oppression? What? Hello? Mad bio. That's a

Jessi Kneelan:

I just wrote that, like, 10 minutes before I got on the call, so I'm glad that worked out.

Freya Graf:

Oh, my lordy lord. Cool. Alright. Where do we even begin? Oh, well, welcome, firstly. Thank you. Welcome back.

Jessi Kneelan:

Yes.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. It's so cool that you mentioned not only helping individuals, but also trying to, I guess, like, shift The narrative on a larger scale with regards to, like, yeah, the systems that we're living in because it's one thing to be, like, I don't need to, like, look beautiful and adhere to these beauty standards, but it's another to then go out into the world, you know, in your track Geese and your shaved head or this and that and just be treated fucking shit, you know, and have all these assumptions about you. And it's like, oh, I don't feel empowered and sexy and grounded in myself because that hotel concierge treated me like I'm homeless, you know?

Jessi Kneelan:

Yep. Yep. Yeah. I think it has to happen on both friends. I sometimes position it as, like, we do need to heal. We need to heal individually. We all need to do this work. It's a cycle breaking, though.

Jessi Kneelan:

Because once we do that and we recognize and we start building a different world, like, there will be a generation who doesn't have to do it anymore, Hopefully. Ideally. Right? Like, it's so much of what we've learned and been conditioned to believe about what a person's body means about them that We then have to spend our whole adulthood recovering from.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm. Yeah. Totally. I think it's like, It's definitely happening in little subcultures, though. It's absolutely not happening in others where you can just spell Yeah. Basically get Botox at fucking 711. But I have noticed in Melbourne at least, which is quite a, like, you know, progressive, lots of little alternative pockets, sort of area. I've gone to a few parties and just been so confused because, I guess, like, My age bracket, what I've grown up with is, like, people very, very heavily curating your experience of them, their outfits, their hair, their makeup.

Freya Graf:

The way they look is really thought out, and you can tell they've put a lot of effort into it even if it's putting effort in to make it look effortless. And then I've been to these, These parties with, like, a younger crew. And I've just like, me and another friend who's also my age who's just been looking around being like, what's happening here? Like, what's What's going on? You know how you kinda try to categorize or analyze, like, a group of of people And and what their behavior maybe that's just me being naughty, but, like, I don't know the stuff. And we were really confused because we were just like, I don't get it. It seems like there's this new fashion that's happening where people don't give a fuck and they're wearing, like, really daggy, You know, outfits that don't seem like they've put a lot of thought into putting it together, and maybe that's the fashion. And then we were like, wait, or maybe They actually just don't care. And we started, like, noticing how people just seemed so comfortable, and now all being so lovely to one another. And not that this doesn't happen, you know, in other, party environments, but it was really, really, like, beautiful to see in these, you know, this younger kind of generation in, like, north side Hippie bubble Melbourne.

Freya Graf:

K. Because we're like, woah. Okay. This you know, there was so much, like, gender fluidity. There was so much, Expression without it being performative. It was just like, okay. Holy fuck. This is this is maybe what it looks Like, when people are just, like, getting around authentically and not adhering to beauty standards.

Freya Graf:

And we, who grew up in the nineties, are, like, god, they look so daggy.

Jessi Kneelan:

Yeah. I I wonder I genuinely wonder. Like, the younger generations have it both easier and worse. Like, they've got Such a different approach to gender expression and roles and sexuality and all this stuff that we did not have. Like, they have such a more liberated and authentic view of certain things, but also have social media. So, like, there is a whole other element to performativity that we didn't have. So it's, you know, it's a mixed bag.

Freya Graf:

Totally. It probably just depends, like, who you grew up with, what school you went to, what area. You know? Like, it's like, what what are your friends doing and what's normalized in that Space, basically. Alright. So let's chat about a big a big kind of Concept that a lot of people are in denial about. Beauty privilege and and what this means. Just give us the rundown. Yeah.

Jessi Kneelan:

So should I assume that people know what privilege is in general, the listeners to the show?

Freya Graf:

I hope so.

Jessi Kneelan:

If not, it is it is a type of privilege that is, sort of given to people who check enough of the conventional beauty norms or ideals or Whatever kind of boxes, meaning that people who check more of those boxes are going to have more beauty privilege. People who check less of those boxes are gonna have less. And it's of course, it's a spectrum like any of the hierarchies that we've got. So it's not like an on off switch. You have it or you don't. You can be located anywhere on the anywhere on the hierarchy. But the closer you are to the top, the more privileges you're gonna be afforded, including things like opportunities. People might make more positive assumptions about you, Your intelligence, although that can also go the other way depending on what's going on and where you are.

Jessi Kneelan:

And Just a lot of kindness, warmth. People believe the best in someone that they see as attractive. And then on the other side of the hierarchy, we've got People who are facing specific discrimination, marginalization, violence even based exclusively on how they look. So part of privilege is also just the absence of the disadvantages facing people who don't check enough boxes. So there are their own benefits, and it's just part of, like, moving through the world without having your appearance Be one of the things that causes challenges, violence, marginalization, etcetera. So, And this is super you know, it depends on where like, your culture is obviously gonna inform this, like, what the beauty ideals are. Gender definitely looks different on, You know, gendered beauty ideals, obviously, body ideals, they're gonna be different. So it's a little bit hard to nail down.

Jessi Kneelan:

I think that's why people have a harder time understanding it. But it can also be understood the word lookism also applies, which basically means, like, people who fit the ideals get treated better in society than people who don't.

Freya Graf:

Oh, I've never heard of. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. I think a lot of people with beauty privilege probably don't realize They have it, whereas people without it probably notice it a fair bit more, you know, because of how differently they're treated. Yeah.

Jessi Kneelan:

And that's true of any privilege, to be fair. People at the top are like, I don't even know if that's a real thing. I've never noticed it. People at the bottom are like, well, let me tell you. It's real. But, also, I I think one of the interesting things is that a lot of the other beauty and or sorry. A lot of the other body hierarchies that that afford someone privilege or disadvantage them, They're all sort of wrapped up in the beauty ones. Right? Like, for example, ableism.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm. We are

Jessi Kneelan:

going to view able-bodied people as more attractive that fits the conventional ideal. We are going to view visibly disabled people as less attractive because it's further from that ideal. So same with racism. Right? Like, We've got a Eurocentric beauty ideal. So Eurocentric looking faces are gonna have that benefit and be closer to the top. And because of that, Sometimes it's sort of a non issue because we've we're talking about those other really important systems of oppression and privilege, but it also is its own thing.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Totally. And even it's even just popped into my mind. Like, it's probably less about Beauty and well, yeah. I mean, you tell me. But I've got friends who, talk about how when they've got that when they've had dreadlocks, They get treated really differently because people assume they're dirty hippie, you know, they they get checked by the police all the time for weed and blah blah blah. And then when they, you know, have shaved their heads or gotten rid of the dreads, they notice a really marked difference in how people treat them and the Assumptions they make about them. So I suppose that kinda ties into, yeah, the the, I guess, the fact that people really do judge a book by its Cover, and they're categorizing you automatically and subconsciously as soon as they look at you.

Freya Graf:

They're kind of, like, clocking. You know, it's like Me and my friend at this party being like, what's going on here? Who are like, who are these people? What are what's their vibe? You know? Because we were just confused, and we wanna be able to Make assumptions based on previous, you know, stereotypes or experiences.

Jessi Kneelan:

There's this thing going around right now on TikTok That's like, you're not ugly, babe. You're just poor. And it's basically, like, to speak into the idea that anyone can be attractive, meaning, like, fit certain conventional ideals if they have enough money. Because at this point, the ideals are like, it's super classist. It's Fillers. It's Botox. It's like expensive hair extensions and right? Like, you can buy it at this point. A lot of people are buying it.

Jessi Kneelan:

So if you can't buy it, you're gonna feel unattractive when actually what you might be is just of a class or income level that doesn't allow you to Keep up with the Joneses. So there's there's, like, a lot of stuff that plays into it in that way where, yes, people are looking for stereotypes and assumptions, usually without even realizing they're doing it. You know? Yeah. And people just respond, sort of, intuitively. We like pretty stuff. So if we've learned something is pretty and we respond positively to it, we're not even where we're doing it. It's not, like, oh, you, you know, you have nice bone structure. I'm gonna be nicer to you.

Jessi Kneelan:

It's not conscious thought. It's just like, oh, hi. You know? Like, we we just do it without even realizing it or without realizing the other factors that might be influencing that feeling.

Freya Graf:

Word. Totally. But then another thing that might happen quite subconsciously is this concept of self objectification. Where does this kinda happen for most people? What does that look like? Can you give us a rundown? Because I feel like that's happening a lot More and more, really, these days, especially now that you can literally just fucking alter your appearance in every way, shape, or form you feel like it. You know? It must get harder not to Self objectify when everyone's doing it.

Jessi Kneelan:

That yeah. That's an interesting one. So self objectification is just an internalized view of yourself through the lens that you're a sexual object is usually what we're talking about. You can totally self objectify for other reasons because objectification isn't inherently sexual. Like, You could objectify a man for his money by thinking of him as, like, a resource to exploit. Right? You're, like, stripping of him Stripping him of his humanity and sort of boiling down to, like, one factor about him. That's still objectification. It's just a different kind.

Jessi Kneelan:

So, usually, when we're talking about this, we're talking about Sexual objectification, which is usually facing girls, women, AFAB people, femmes who Have learned under patriarchy that they are sexual objects and that in order to have worth, they have to be good at that job. Like, that they're sort of owing the world a pleasant appearance or, You know, all the way up to, like, sexual gratification or just like ego stroking, caretaking, you know, that there's a lot of stuff that goes on under patriarchy that teaches Women and femmes, you're not a whole human. You don't have the same, like, worthiness for respect, Dignity and autonomy and full humanity, as Amanda's, we still value you. You just have to fit this box. Right? Like, you we will value you if you do a good job at the thing that we're telling you is your one good job, which is, like, to be hot. So Good luck with that. And then we internalize it. And because this is the world we live in, we don't think to ourselves, like, this is complete bullshit and oppressive, Usually.

Jessi Kneelan:

I mean, we might have that thought occasionally, but mostly we just grow up in the world and go, yeah, that makes sense. I should be hot. So then it becomes the way you view yourself.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And, like, one of the biggest ways that I kinda see this, Which I definitely don't blame people for is people are, I guess, Maybe they're kidding themselves or maybe they're just not fully aware of, like, the underlying kind of systems of oppression that have created this in them, but they're kinda going, oh, but, like, I don't you know, I I, you know, wear this lingerie and do the Fake tan and remove my pubic hair and do the things. But, like, I do it for me because I can make it for me feel good. It's for me. It's not for a man. It's not for the male gaze. Like, don't give a shit. I'm like, oh, honey.

Freya Graf:

Oh. Yeah.

Jessi Kneelan:

So I I am so passionate about this topic because, On the one hand, it is utterly possible, and I never wanna discredit the fact that you could be doing literally anything for you. And I also think it's important to recognize the systems at play that alter what we perceive as comfortable, safe, desirable, preferable. So, like, And even just comfort, it can mean so many different things in the context. So, for example, like, some people will say, oh, I just wear a bra because it's more comfortable. Well, that's Totally fine. It doesn't mean that you're talking about physical comfort though. It can be a lot more comfortable to have your boobs sorta held down because it helps you avoid The feeling of overly exposed or sexualized in the world. That bra could physically be biting into your sides or, like, squishing you.

Jessi Kneelan:

It could be physically uncomfortable and still be the more comfortable choice. Yeah. Just like you could say, you know, I just Feel more confident or I just feel better when I have a full face makeup on. It's because the context has made it so that you feel less anxious Or insecure or afraid of judgment or any number of things. Not because there is like, we're not making the decisions in a vacuum. Yeah. So this is not a judgment. I believe fully in, like, make any and all decisions you want.

Jessi Kneelan:

There's no judgment on any decision a person makes for themselves or their bodies. Believe in full autonomy. And I think it's a much more interesting conversation when you're willing to acknowledge, like, yes, this is for me, but what does that mean? Because where did I learn what I like or don't like? What I'm afraid of or feel confident about? You know, those things are Context informed.

Freya Graf:

Oh, totally. And it's really tricky to have this conversation in a nuanced way that doesn't feel like you're attacking or victim blaming or kind of, you know, get these people on the defensive. Because, like, I get I get exactly why it happens. I get why people, You know, enjoy adorning themselves, and that's a, you know, common argument people will make to me. It's like, oh, women have been adorning themselves with jewelry and makeup Since, like, the beginning of time, and I'm like, yeah. But how do you know that wasn't just to, like, have to mate? Like,

Jessi Kneelan:

Do you know, though? I actually okay. So this is a nonresearch evidenced based thing I'm about to say, but I have thought extensively about what it means to be masculine, feminine. Just a lot of Stuff in the space of, like, if a child is born wanting to adorn themselves of any gender, if it's a girl, mostly, we just it's non notable. It's like princess culture or whatever. There's a lot of stuff going on with that. But if it's a boy, a lot of times that boy Has had to go through so many freaking obstacles just to express the fact that, like, he likes bright colors and wants to wear jewelry or whatever it is And does it anyway, which means there's some drive. And I wonder sometimes, like, Instead of masculine, feminine, could we have maybe called this, like, the drive to adorn and the drive not to adorn? You know, like, is there some innate Drive that says I want to, decorate myself? Because if there is, I don't think I had it. I did it for all of the reasons of Coercion and pressure and whatever.

Jessi Kneelan:

But I know a lot of women who really do have it, and I know a lot of men who really do have it. And it feels really dumb that we would boil that down into gender And rob everyone of the opportunity to do or not do what they want, but that's obviously the framework we've been given.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And I grapple with this because I feel like as a child, I was, like, very creative and crafty, and I loved making, you know, Bits of jewelry or costumes or clothing out of, you know, gum leaves and whatever shit that I found at a garage sale, and I think that was more, creative, expressive side of me rather than, you know, wanting, to look attractive, but then who knows how young it can kinda creep in. Sure. And even now, it's like, you know, I'd we did a I did an episode with some friends called, are we bad feminists? And it was all about, like, oh, but what if we enjoy kind of, like, getting ready or, like, putting on a nice dress or this or that? And It's like, I don't think there's any harm or shame in that. It's just important to understand and recognize, like, that like you said, like, these decisions and these urges to adorn ourselves or make ourselves look a certain way, they don't happen in a vacuum. It is generally stemming from A desire to be attractive or to feel confident and comfortable, and we only feel confident and comfortable because, like, you know, we're looking Our best or where we've put effort into our appearance, and we've curated how people are gonna perceive us.

Jessi Kneelan:

Yeah. I actually, I definitely like I said, like, I don't think there's any bad feminist. There's no bad body, you know, positive or neutral people, whatever. Like, these decisions, Do what you want. Does not matter. But I, at this point, have done enough work to completely dismantle What these things mean about me that if I were to put on, like, a super femme outfit like, sometimes I'll do makeup or, you know, hair extensions or an outfit or whatever. And when I do it, it feels like I'm putting on a costume, and there's fun in that. If I'm in the mood to wear drag, That's what I'll do.

Jessi Kneelan:

And it's enjoyable because I know I'm wearing drag. What it used to be was, like, this is just literally how I have To present myself, or else people will think I'm weird or gross or ugly or whatever. And it it comes from a much more, like, Childish creative place, I think, of, like, I wanna play dress up sometimes. And sometimes that's masculine, and sometimes that's feminine. But, like, it's all fake, And I enjoy all of it at different moods, you know. And I think that it's kinda like with kink stuff too where, like, if you are grappling with, do I have this fantasy because of some trauma I had, or or is it okay? Like, the answer can be both. You can be like, yep. That might not have come from a great place, you know, for whatever reason.

Jessi Kneelan:

But if it's what you got, there's no reason not to play with it in a safe, healthy, and consensual way. Like, enjoy what you like and maybe be aware of, that could have come from a problematic place.

Freya Graf:

That's such a great analogy to use. Yeah. It's not as important about the origins if you can find a way to enjoy it. And I think, like, yeah, that comparison between, like, play expression dress ups versus I have to Dawn, these, you know, this outfit, all I have to do all of this stuff Yeah. Just to be Or else.

Jessi Kneelan:

At school.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Or else. And I'm not worthy otherwise or no one's gonna, like, look twice at me or I won't be able to I mean, a big one is, like, Sure. It's all very well, you know, to say that you don't care about this stuff. You're not gonna put effort into appearance or, like, dress for anyone else. But then the people that are single and wanting to, like, quote, unquote, attract a partner, like, what about them? I'm just thinking of, like, common questions or, like, topics that I get you know, that I hear in this realm is like, oh, but, like, you know, I I'm single and, like, sure. I don't wanna, like, attract A person who's vapid or only cares about appearance. However, just based on, like, the context in the world that we live in, like, that Does actually matter whether the other person is realizing or not that they're, you know, they're picking up on whether they're attracted to us or not based on all of these external things.

Freya Graf:

And, you know, they they just don't wanna be treated differently, or they don't wanna lose some of that beauty privilege because it gives them An advantage when heading out into the world to find a partner. Like, the word active is literally, like, you know, it it it requires another person to be. Be so what what would you say, like, if we're because I think people get defensive when I'm like, yeah. It's not like I'm attacking their decision to, you know, get lip fillers or, you know, put on makeup every time they leave the house or whatever. Fucking get it, but I'm just trying to bring awareness to, like, why they're doing that. And do they wanna continue living their lives feeling like they have to do that? And it's like they get really defensive. They don't want, you know I guess it's terrifying to think like, oh, but what would happen if I didn't do it? And will I still be able To attract a partner when we are living in such a, like, vain kind of aesthetic driven world.

Jessi Kneelan:

Yeah. So what comes up for me around that is it it depends on the cost and the benefit of the strategy you're using. Because I believe they don't come into my sphere very often because of my work, but, like, I believe there are people out there who could do a a pretty significant Portion of, like, curating beauty labor, all that stuff without much of a cost. Like, maybe they don't feel insecure. They just like doing it, Or maybe they're happy to keep doing it forever, and they're not worried about needing to, like, break free from the anxiety of, you know, obligation or whatever. But for the people that I work with, a lot of times, they're coming into me with a huge cost. The cost of feeling deeply undeserving, Deeply on fundamentally unworthy, wrong, bad, broken, any number of things. So, like, If it comes with a really high cost, then I would just challenge, like, is the benefit worth it? That you maybe get some more people to notice you and, therefore, keep your dating pool open a little bit wider at the cost of literally feeling like you're okay in the world.

Jessi Kneelan:

I don't know. I everybody gets to decide. But I will say that the more we avoid the things that make us anxious or afraid, The more power that fear has. So, like, if yesterday you went out without makeup, it's probably not gonna feel that scary to think about doing tomorrow, even if you wear makeup today. If it's been 20 years since you've left the house without makeup, it might feel to you on, like, a visceral level, like, the world would end if you did it. The longer we go without challenging our fears, the bigger those fears get and the more power they have over us. So in some ways, I also like to challenge people just to go through the process of checking. You know, like, just just notice.

Jessi Kneelan:

If you break one of these rules, do you feel like you're gonna die? Because that is a pretty significant thing to know about the role that this behavior is playing in your Self worth and your sense of safety and security. And that's probably something you don't wanna keep. You probably do wanna face that fear. Not necessarily so you never wear makeup again or whatever, but so that it comes something that doesn't have that much power over you. Yeah. I also believe wholeheartedly that The anxiety created when you present a certain way that does not feel sustainable or authentic to you in the beginning when you were dating, You're setting yourself up, if it goes well, best case scenario, for a lifetime of insecurity. Let's say you've just dyed it your face off because you went through a breakup or you're at your thinnest weight, you fall in love with the most magical person who really loves you for who you are. You are now going to have to spend However long it takes in the rest of this relationship wondering, now that I have my weight coming back up to a more regular place because I Happened to be in that very thin body, are they less attracted to me? Nothing they ever do or say will be able to take this fear or worry or consideration away.

Jessi Kneelan:

And, likewise, if you're, like, on, you know, date 1 and you never do this, but you're, like, really femmed up or whatever, like, trying to look your best, By the time they see your natural face on date 3, date 5, overnight, whatever it is, like, you will feel terrified. It will feel so stressful. If it doesn't, obviously, that doesn't apply here. But, like, a lot of people do. Similarly, if you put up all your best photos on a dating app and then you go to your 1st date and you're So scared they're gonna be disappointed. If you just put up photos that look like you, maybe you wouldn't have gotten this date, and that tells you something. Exactly. Yeah.

Jessi Kneelan:

That tells you something important. Yeah. And, also, there is something to the fact that some people have so few opportunities That if they were to not curate, they might not have any options. So it's nuanced. And again, there's no right or wrong way to do it. But when I work with people in these situations, like a lot of times it is Setting yourself up to feel incredibly insecure for a long time to feel confident in the short term.

Freya Graf:

Hey, baby babes. Sorry to interrupt. I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. There, you'll find extra bits and bobs like freebies, behind the scenes, or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the podcast. They'll also be, hopefully, inspiring, thought provoking conversations and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a really supportive, educational, and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me And a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge Group in Facebook, and I'll see you in there.

Freya Graf:

And now back to the episode. Yeah. Oh my god. It reminds me, like, a really kind of minor example of this because I think I caught it really early and nipped it in the bud was, like, when I was in year 9, I was, like, getting up stupidly early every day, spending 2 hours, like, doing my hair, my makeup, you know, wearing funky earrings, blah blah Yeah. To go to fucking high school. And I just remember getting to a point where I was like, This is ridiculous, and I don't want actually, my reasoning behind it. It's so funny. I was like, I don't wanna, like, be at a boy's house and then wake up in the morning and then see me without my makeup and feel like shit.

Freya Graf:

I'd be like, oh my god. That's exciting. And my other thing was, like and when I go to a party and I wanna adorn myself and I wanna look extra special And, like, get ready with the girls and blah blah blah. I want it to be extra special. I don't wanna be looking extra special every day at school, so that's the baseline. And everyone's just like, you know, I wanna look Regular at school. And then when I choose to look extra special, it's like, wow. You know? Yeah.

Freya Graf:

And I don't want the baseline to just be this thing that I have to maintain because taking so fucking long, and then I don't know if people actually, you know yeah. I I didn't want people to be treating me differently because I looked Yeah. Like that day to day. I wanted people to know exactly how I looked so I just in year 9 stopped wearing any makeup or doing anything to my appearance. And it was so confronting at first. I was like, that 1st day going into school without and, like, I didn't wear that much makeup. Like, You know, bit of a star and stuff. Like, I never it was a long time ago when I grew up in the country.

Freya Graf:

Like, it wasn't like it is today where they're literally telling, like, 18 year olds to get Botox Preventatively.

Jessi Kneelan:

Right.

Freya Graf:

And then you have to get Botox for the rest of your fucking life. God forbid, you get, like, a bloody line on your forehead for smiling. So it's like, It was way chill back then, but I already started sensing, like, oh, I don't wanna be a slave to this. Like, the beauty labor we talk about, It's so fucking my you know? And, like, however, I mean, my, like, other versions of how I, fell victim is, like, I was Super, super self conscious about my body hair, and I just used to go through hell removing that through all different means Until eventually, after, like, so many fucking ingrown hair scars and pustules on my bikini line, I went and got laser hair removal basically over my whole body for, like, 6 years. I was going every 6 weeks and getting lasered, and it was the most painful shit I've ever felt. It was like, you know, my pussy lips were fucking Peeling afterwards sometimes. It was just like, what the fuck? And so I get it. Like, I totally get it.

Freya Graf:

And I also I feel like I can't Fucking talk about this because I do have the privilege of fitting into a lot of the conventional beauty standards. You know? And I still fucking felt completely, like, powerless to to go against them. Like, I had to you know? So, anyway, that's my rant.

Jessi Kneelan:

I think the Automatic assumption with privilege in general. Like, it's always assumed you should be trying to climb to the top of the hierarchies. That that is Goal that is the admirable and right thing to do if not, like, a forced choice because of any number of reasons. And so people are always trying to gain beauty privilege by improving their appearance. Right? Nobody's like, I'm just trying to stay and look about The same as I always do. That's not, like, a really a choice that anyone talks about because at the point, it's a nothing. Like, you're just existing. But Most people are trying to climb the ladder.

Jessi Kneelan:

And there are so so so many ways we can do this now. Thanks, technology, for making it, Like, an absolutely endless since we were in high school, there's so many more ways you can do it now. But because of that, I think you do end up becoming a slave to it. Like, that's what happens. Not for everybody just like Doing hard drugs doesn't make everybody an addict. But, like, there is a statistical likelihood that the more you engage in those behaviors, the more you will feel like If I were to lose this, I would lose something important about who I am. I would lose, the attention or validation or respect or opportunities Or people would love me last or, you know, it's like it starts to become really scary. That's how we do it.

Jessi Kneelan:

It's because we reached above where we Would normally be if we just showed up. And then we got stuck trying to defend our position there.

Freya Graf:

Had to maintain that. Yeah. It's so hard

Jessi Kneelan:

to maintain and it's so exhausting. And your example with the, like, mascara is exactly what I had to go through the same thing in my twenties to be like, shit, man. I feel, Like, so anxious about a guy finding out that I have, like, a regular human face. And, again, I wasn't wearing that much either. Thank God. Because nowadays, it's totally different. But, like, the thought of him seeing me without mascara made me wanna cry. And, like, that should mascara should not have that much power, and I was like, alright.

Jessi Kneelan:

Yikes, you know. And I'll give you another example too because when I was 19, I dyed my hair blonde. I've done all kinds of wack stuff to my hair, but I dyed it blonde. And a very particular kind of man was into me when it was blonde and very different than my normal. I connected with men who I would never have connected with, who would not have been attracted to me, who would not have made certain assumptions about me, which, by the way, were all Lies. Nobody nobody was seeing the real me in this moment of my life, but that's fine. But yeah. So I connected with a different kind of guy and then, I felt Like, oh my god.

Jessi Kneelan:

1st of all, my hair was falling out, so I had I knew I had to change it. At a certain point, I was like, alright. I have done some serious damage. I'm gonna have to cut off a huge amount of this length And probably die dark and, like, this experiment failed. But I was so anxious because I knew that, like, They didn't know what I looked like. They knew drag me. They knew costume me, and I and I was right. They all fell away when it became, like, this So what I actually look like? And that should never be the case.

Jessi Kneelan:

But you don't realize in the moment that you're attracting the wrong people, different people, people who are interested in, like, a version of you that they are Rejecting and isn't real. I mean, it's not good for us in the long run. It's not good for our relationships, but it feels like abundance. It's just, like, Fake abundance. It's diet abundance. You know?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Oh, totally. Yeah. It's It's, like, more obvious for people that, like, often change their appearance or change their hair or, you know, like my friends who cut off their dreads, like, Or, friends female friends who have shaved their heads. Like, they all talk about how it's really fascinating how Quickly, like, there's just this immediate, like, different way people treat them, and they notice that. Whereas, like, I guess, I've kinda never really changed my appearance Much my Mhmm. My life, so I haven't Yeah. Really noticed that.

Freya Graf:

But, yeah.

Jessi Kneelan:

So They were super combative with me when I had A buzzed head. Like, I seemed to annoy them just for existing. Couldn't be further from the opposite from long blonde hair at 19. So, like, These things do impact the way that you're being perceived, the way you're being treated, what you're bringing out in other people. And, again, none of that is innately, like, prescriptive. It's okay to just do whatever. You can totally pick the one that makes people nice to you. There's no judgment in that choice.

Jessi Kneelan:

It's just that I think when, again, the cost versus the benefit, like, when we really think about, well, what is that choice costing you? A lot of times it costs way more than we realize, and it's not actually benefiting us the way we think.

Freya Graf:

Oh my god. Totally. Well, let's segue into beauty labor then because that's, like, part of the cost. It's like, not only is there an emotional cost, but The upkeep, it's time. It's fucking money. We already get paid less than men, and we're spending a fuckload more just To, you know, feel worthy for men. So, like, let's chat about, like, some things that maybe people haven't realized because it's like, I feel like it creeps in. You know? You start you start waxing your legs when you're young.

Freya Graf:

You start using mascara, and then you gotta have the toner, and then you gotta have the fucking 50 layers of like, I literally don't even know because I don't really wear makeup, and I make all my own skin care. Truly don't even know because I don't really wear makeup and I make all my own skincare, and I literally Oh, nice. That's fun. So I have, like, a face oil that I make, And that's literally fucking it. So when I see people's beauty regimes, I am gobsmacked. Yeah. And that's just like that's just noninvasive. You know? And then it just layers and layers and layers.

Freya Graf:

And by the time they're in their twenties, maybe they're doing, like, 20 different things, You know, and spending money on all of these different things just to maintain this particular appearance. So, like, I'd love you to chat about, Yeah. What goes into what goes into, I guess, like, staving off the insecurity?

Jessi Kneelan:

Oh, god. That's a huge question. Well, I will say that one of the things I think is a common misconception around beauty labor Is that a lot of people will be doing things that I would consider beauty labor because I'm really just putting the whole thing in a big umbrella category of Stuff we do to increase our status through our appearance. That's huge. That's a huge category. And, technically, some stuff in there, You know, like, brushing your teeth might fit under that category and also just be about something else entirely, like not wanting Bad breath or, you know, like, wanting good dental health, like, it can be 1 foot in the category and 1 foot foot out. Lots of stuff is. But what I think happens is because people don't associate certain patterns of behavior with attractiveness, they associate it with, let's say, health Or they might associate it with, professionalism.

Jessi Kneelan:

So they're not thinking I wanna be hot. That's why I'm doing this. They're thinking, I want to maintain a healthy body. That's why I diet and exercise and do all these things. And that could be totally true. Again, it could be 1 foot in, 1 foot out of the category. Although a lot of weight stigma makes these things Seem like they're related when they are not. And then another example would be, like, a woman with a a woman of Color who might straighten her hair to look professional and doesn't feel more attractive with it that way.

Jessi Kneelan:

It's just like what I have to do to, You know, be seen as professional. So I consider all of it. All of it is under the category because it's about increasing status through your appearance one way or the other. So there's a lot of stuff in it. There's no judgment of any individuals. Obviously, hair and makeup are huge. At this point, skincare has taken off. I just finished this book about, Korean beauty ideals.

Jessi Kneelan:

It was utterly horrifying. And, like, you know, 7 to 10 step Skincare routines and Yeah. The contour. My god. The kids with the contour, I bought a contour stick to try to figure out what was happening, And I probably spent hours just looking at it, trying things, watching the videos, and just being like, I'm I don't. Is am I too old to understand contour? I just was curious because, literally, what they're doing is sculpting. It's art, and it's fascinating. Anyway so, like, doing all of these things are so many layers at this point.

Jessi Kneelan:

And like you said, there's also more invasive procedures, Treatments, you know, Botox, fillers, skincare, laser. I got the laser hair removal as well. I mean, talk about how freaking expensive, time consuming, and painful that all was. I never read it later when I was like, oh, I wanna be one of those people who just, like, have a bush under my arm or whatever, like and I can't now.

Freya Graf:

I am not totally.

Jessi Kneelan:

It's all of it. It's teeth whitening. Right? It's like it it's it's the whole package of the thing. And we often don't realize we're doing it because Some of it is 1 foot in this category and 1 foot in self expression, or 1 foot in this category and 1 foot in house. So it's one of those things I think it does make people feel defensive because they They feel like they're being accused of trying to be hot, which would make them superficial or vain. But a lot of times, all they're trying to do is gain a little bit of status through their appearance. And there is a lot a lot of labor that can go into that, especially for women and femmes, although, honestly, more and more for everybody.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, eating disorders among men is so rife as well. Yeah. And I think, like, the The thing that I don't like seeing is, I guess, like, judgment or vitriol being directed at, You know, like, quote unquote cake face. Like, we're like, all these really derogatory ways that we talk about women who obviously have, you know, either underlying insecurities or they just feel like To be, you know, accepted or attractive or worthy, to take up space in this world, they have to do all these things. And it's like, Okay. But, like, she is a victim of the patriarchy here.

Freya Graf:

Like, even fucking I

Jessi Kneelan:

saw a

Freya Graf:

cool post yesterday about Valentine's Day saying something like, Hey. By the way, like, just just so you're you're all aware, women didn't, like, traditionally start asking for, like, jewelry as a gift because we're Fucking magpies and, like, you know, collecting shiny things. We did it because we weren't allowed to have money or bank accounts

Jessi Kneelan:

or Yes.

Freya Graf:

Or property. So we would ask the gift that we could quickly convert to cash if we needed to because we can't have money.

Jessi Kneelan:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. So it's all still stemming from, like, you know, The patriarchy, the male gaze, our our desire just to get some level of, like, equality or recognition or or or status or power. Security. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, god.

Jessi Kneelan:

Totally. Yeah. And I also feel like there's I mean, there's so much judgment on every side of this. Right? Like, the same men who are, like, she's lying if she's wearing too much makeup, like, she's Trying to trick you are also gonna be the ones who, tend to go for a higher status woman with more beauty privilege. So it's, you know, it's like the sexism and misogyny is On every angle. That's why I feel so strongly, like, the decisions don't matter. Do whatever you want. But I invite everybody to consider where they come from and what they have As an impact on you and maybe what they have is an impact on other people.

Jessi Kneelan:

Because the more of us who do the same behaviors, the more normalized that becomes, and now the standard has been raised. And now if you don't do that behavior, you are a part of a subversive weirdo group, and everybody's gonna be like, you look sick today. You know? Like, the more of us who break the rules, the less we participate in that being normalized, But, also, not everybody can, not everybody should, and that's totally fair too.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. So in our previous episode that we did together, we already did a get pregnant and die. So I'm not gonna ask you for another sex ed Anecode. People can go back and listen to that. That was a good one. But do you have a fresh TMI story for us? About what? I mean,

Jessi Kneelan:

so much.

Freya Graf:

Literally, anything that pops to mind. Maybe it's about what we're talking about. Like, my TMI probably was, you know, just all of the hair removal The juice that I use that resulted in scarring and years of pain and depleted savings.

Jessi Kneelan:

I don't know that I have any in this area anymore. I think that's kind of the thing. Like, at this point I mean, I'll still spend the money or do the whatever sometimes thing if I'm in the mood. I just bought blue hair extensions, which are a total fail. Because because in the picture that I bought, they were curled. And so I was like, oh, you know, even if they come straight, you can curl them. Look at my hair. I'm not straightening my hair for blue hair extensions.

Jessi Kneelan:

I wanted to just put a little clip in. Anyway, they didn't curl. They're, like, made of

Freya Graf:

Oh.

Jessi Kneelan:

What I have to imagine is really cheap plastic, and that didn't work out. So now I just have a bunch of pretty blue Nothing. Spaghetti on my floor, actually. Right over here.

Freya Graf:

It's not really a TMI, but it is your bed. Like earrings or something like that.

Jessi Kneelan:

It's actually yes. Because they're thin strips.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jessi Kneelan:

Yeah. Let's do that. Really fun idea. Oh, use them in a craft project.

Freya Graf:

Totally. Totally. Alright. Well, before we, like, move on from the topic of beauty labor, I just wanted I just remembered something I wanted to mention because I love the way that you talk about The fact that we are often really afraid to, like, stop doing all of the beauty labor because we're scared of what will happen if we cease to maintain this Very carefully curated appearance. And Yeah. You know, rather than focusing on what we could gain, from that and, like, How empowering, how liberating, how, you know, potentially, we could be experiencing some really positive outcomes in, like, ceasing to have to Spend all of this, like, time and money and, like, literally, like, brain space, you know, just all like, we're we're using a lot of our capacity on trying to curate our appearance. And, And we're very afraid of what will happen if we stop, but, like, you know, you highlight that, actually, there can be some really Fucking positive and empowering outcomes that can come of this. So, like, do you wanna talk a little bit on that just to maybe encourage people to be like, it Doesn't have to be all doom and gloom.

Freya Graf:

Like, there can be really good things that come of it if you start to maybe, like, scale it back a little bit.

Jessi Kneelan:

Yes. 100%. So in order to talk about that, I wanna just name that confidence is one of those words that we have An idea of what it means, and it's basically a feeling. It's a feeling of, like, pleasure. That's kind of what we think of it as. It not exactly pleasure, but It's a really good feeling that we get about ourselves. And when we define it that way, we miss the context like we were talking about before. The context is incredibly important because usually the feeling comes from a thought.

Jessi Kneelan:

And the thought is, I check enough of these boxes today to be worthy of feeling good. So it's an assessment. It's not actually a feeling, although it does give us a good feeling because we've just Assessed ourselves positively. It's almost always if it's about your look, it's I look good enough to feel good today. It could be about anything, though. Like, I feel so confident because I believe that I don't know. Whatever the thing at work is, like, that I'm good at that job. Great.

Jessi Kneelan:

It's an assessment. And then a lot of that feeling is super temporal because it's based on something very short term. It's not innate about who you are as a person or even your skill set a lot of times. Like, it it could be. You could have genuine confidence about How you do your job at work. But a lot of times people describe it as, like, oh, I was feeling super confident because I just nailed this thing and gotten positive feedback. So they're describing a very short term Experience of having assessed themselves positively according to often an oppressive hierarchy or just external validation. So that's what we think confidence means.

Jessi Kneelan:

Is it any freaking wonder that we assume we have to, like, claw our way up a hierarchy to get more of it? No. It makes total sense. It's just wrong. As we've talked about, clawing your way up actually comes with a lot of insecurities, a lot of bad relationship stuff because you're drawing the wrong people to you. And I would say also, it gives you a false sense of security about people's character or, like, Sort of standing or how much they respect or like you. Kinda like we understand, like, a super rich kid Doesn't know if he really has friends or not because maybe people are using him for his money. Right? We have this cultural trope around money. It's the same thing around beauty.

Jessi Kneelan:

If you are doing a ton of labor to climb this hierarchy and feel good about yourself, you also are going to attract people who are there to objectify and exploit you or people who would be very disrespectful of you or dismissive or Whatever other thing if you looked different. But you won't know that because you did the work to get into this privileged position. So one of the biggest benefits of scaling back beauty labor is making people kinda show their true color and character a little bit. And this allows you to find out much faster if someone is a dick or not, basically. If someone is going to be Fat phobic and you are forcing yourself into a smaller body with an eating disorder or obsessive dieting or whatever, then you never find out that your boss is kind of fat phobic Or going to be a jerk about it, or gonna be really inappropriate about it. It makes people reveal themselves. And that is a good thing. It's uncomfortable, But it is positive for you in the long run because it means you get to be way more selective about the people that you spend time with.

Jessi Kneelan:

And ultimately, you're gonna be bringing the right people to you they're people who genuinely respect your humanity. And similar with all of these things, I think, It's just that when you are not relying on privilege and external validation and all of these things in order to feel good about yourself, You also, kinda, have to figure out who you are and what you feel good about from an authentic place. It's, kinda, why, like, sometimes when you say, like, A good looking person with a good personality, and they're, like, oh, I I wasn't good looking till adulthood. Right? Like, I was forced to build a personality first. Like, that's one of those things as well that we have as a trope that's, like, you wouldn't need to bother being funny or kind or interesting if you were good looking your whole life. And there's some truth to it. It's not obviously prescriptive. It's not everybody.

Jessi Kneelan:

But there's so much more that you learn about yourself when you're not relying on That being your identity, that being your source of worthiness or confidence, like, you just both have To and get to go build those things on something more authentic about yourself, which makes you a richer person, your life richer and better, your relationships better. Like, It ends up being while it can be certainly uncomfortable and confronting to find out that someone in your life is disrespectful, who maybe you didn't know that before. Like, If they think you're hot and wanna sleep with you and they're very complimentary about you all the time and then you stop wearing makeup or you buzz your head or something and now they're a jerk to you, like, That sucks. That's a really unpleasant thing to experience. But it also gives you information that, ultimately, you want and, ultimately, makes your life better. So there's a lot a lot that leads to actual authentic empowered confidence when you step away from the labor. It's just not how we're taught to think of what confidence means.

Freya Graf:

Totally. And it kind of I mean, I've got lots of lots of things to say after Finn trying to jot down notes to remind myself. But, like, you know, the kinds of compliments that we give kids all fucking appearance based, especially if they're little girls. It's, like always about, like, their hair or their dress or their nail polish or, like so pretty. Oh my god. Yeah. And so, you know, The kinds of compliments that people give you when you're in the dating world, for instance, just pay attention to that. Are they all based on your appearance? Are they all based around your body? Like, do you feel like, You know, if if all of that beauty were to just disappear, would they still be there, and what would they be complimenting you on or noticing? And, like, that that trope of Of, like, you know, you're having having to be the funny one or develop a personality because the looks aren't there.

Freya Graf:

Like, you know, another version of that that I hear it sometimes, which, like, I've thought was a really funny thing at the time, but now I'm like, oh, god. It's really sad that that's even you know, like, there must I think there is some truth in it, but, like, I got girlfriends that are like, yeah. I love chubby guys. They try way harder in bed. You know? It's a thing for

Jessi Kneelan:

women as well. I've

Freya Graf:

heard that. Yeah. Yeah. And and I've also kinda, like, thought, like, sometimes I'll make I I I kinda make, Assumptions based on this stuff, but kind of in the opposite opposite way. Like, if there's, like, a really attractive Person, guy, I'll just be like, I bet he's fucking basic. I bet he's so boring because he's so hot that he's never had To actually try and no one's ever said no to his dick before, and he actually doesn't really have any reason to, like, be a lovely, deep person.

Jessi Kneelan:

There is Some truth to that. They're fucking cute. Not everyone, but there is.

Freya Graf:

Not always. Yeah.

Jessi Kneelan:

Also, I used to work as a personal Trainer, I saw some of these men with, you know, 8 packs and 10 packs just, like, so jacked, so beautiful models and whatever. And I I also saw how they spent their time. And it was not necessarily, the kind of way that would lead to a super interesting partner, like Because when you care that much about how you look, when you're putting that much in, it takes a lot of other space and fills it. So how interesting can you be if you spend 3 to 4 hours in the gym every day?

Freya Graf:

Totally. Totally. And, you know, when you have been so Privileged with looking attractive and getting this, like, really positive response from people from a young age. And you notice, like, the people that did only become Conventionally attractive in their adult life and maybe they were like a chubby teenager or whatever. They're fucking legends and they're actually so surprised at getting attention all of a sudden that they, like, don't even know what to do with it because they aren't expecting it. They're not feeling entitled

Jessi Kneelan:

to it. Exactly.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And it's really, It's really interesting because, like, I definitely do see this with, like, people that have just been hot their whole lives, especially, you know, white men. Like, they are, Like, not all of them, but a lot of them, yeah, just haven't really had the kind of, like, trials and tribulations or, being sort of Squeeze through a crucible to the point where they've had to develop depth and communication skills and, you know, Lots of respect for women and and consent and stuff. Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and 5 star ratings for the potty because, As I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab, and the more people who get to hear it, the more people I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster, and it's really easy to just Quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving 5 stars for the show on Spotify or, even better, Writing a written review and leaving 5 stars over on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're a real overachiever, you can do them both. That Would be mad.

Freya Graf:

If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use g rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, Words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates. Lame. Anyway, I would I would personally recommend doing that right now while you remember just to get on top of it and let me know you're with me on this journey. Thanks, gang. Enjoy the rest of the epi. Yeah. Something that I kind of I loved that you were saying, you know, you gain this, I guess, Actually true, authentic confidence when you know that someone's responding to you rather than your personality. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

And that's, like, you know, gonna give you peace of mind that people are There for you, not for, like, you know, this body that you've tried to, like, sculpt, and that's obviously gonna be unsustainable, especially, like, if you wanna have kids one day. Yeah. I kind of talk about my some of my adornments, which are like, Well, my spectacles, basically. I wear glasses. And I have, like, massive, like, big chunky frames and dorky old frames. And, I mean, that's actually become really trendy now in Melbourne Yeah. For me. But, like, I've been wearing them long before they were fashionable.

Freya Graf:

That's funny. And, You know, that I always refer to them as my dickhead filter because, you know, it's it's a Not now.

Jessi Kneelan:

Now that you are accidentally trendy, it won't work anymore, but it would have before. I love that. I know.

Freya Graf:

I know. And and it's really important to me to, like like, I'm almost curating my appearance in a way that's Acting as a repellant or a dickhead filter, not for my you know, not to be more attractive to people.

Jessi Kneelan:

Oh, that is so much of you.

Freya Graf:

Kind of people. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And, you know, like, I I I still I recognize my privilege. Like, I I feel like, you know, my body size and shape and everything definitely is pretty much your standard conventional, like, And people compliment me on that a lot, so I know that I must be somewhat attractive. You know? I'm not, like, denying that. However, That makes it even more important that that I have these dickhead filters because people are gonna, like, see me and make assumptions or, like, people that I don't wanna be attracted Did to me again, you know, come at me.

Freya Graf:

And, like, if I've got the big specs on and the dorky clothes or, like, the baggy clothes or, you know, and then no makeup and stuff like this, that's 1 dickhead filter, and and I really value that. The other one that is less about appearance, and that a lot of my Friends kinda bawlk out and they're like, oh my god. I can't believe you said that. Like, I would never say that. Oh my god. You're gonna scare him off. And I'm like, good, is when I'm, like, intensely, Transparently communicative, and I talk about my boundaries. I talk about my needs.

Jessi Kneelan:

I talk about my fucking do this too. Yeah. It is a game changer people don't know. Like, they're like, you're gonna scare him off, and I'm like, good. If he's that kinda guy, I don't want him out of here right now. I don't wanna waste my time on him. It's fucking funny

Freya Graf:

that we spend, like, enough time trying to navigate and manage, Like, fragile male egos. Honestly, I can't be fucked if they can't have a really warm conversation with me. And I can't be, like, Oh, hey. Like, no. And it's only our, like, 2nd date. I'm not ready to have sex with you. Like, it takes me ages to feel really comfortable and safe with someone, and I don't know you well enough yet. And, You know, to be quite frank, I'm probably gonna burst into tears when I have sex with you because, like, I often have cryogasms, and I didn't wanna drop that on you on the 1st day.

Freya Graf:

Like, I hate this shit.

Jessi Kneelan:

Is that right? Right. Laura and I

Freya Graf:

and I'm just like, well, no. But, like, if he can't and, you know, I like, recently, I sort of said to someone, I kinda felt like an accessory. I I felt like an accessory. I felt like your sort of sexual energy was just steamrolling over mine. You weren't listening to my body. You weren't actually kind of, like, Intuiting or, like, attuning to me, blah blah blah. Like, I will say all this stuff, and I think, like, people Are just so not used to that level of, like, transparency and clear communication and having enough, like, you know, self esteem, confidence, boundaries, self worth That they're, like, constantly putting you know, especially when it's in a heterodynamic, they're putting the man's, like, feelings and ego first. And I'm like, do you really wanna sign up to do that for the rest of your fucking life? Like, I'm out to find, like, you know, my fucking person, And I'm not about to, like, you know, invest a single bit more time in something unless they're able to meet me in this place.

Jessi Kneelan:

Oh my god. I love this so much. I do all of that. I recommend all of that. I make my clients try to do that, although not everybody will. And it's so so transformative and empowering, And it's more than just boundaries. Boundaries are a huge test for sure. They make you show your true colors.

Jessi Kneelan:

For sure. For sure. But, like, even just transparency of, like, this What I'm looking for and expect. We are taught to keep that hidden because it would freak someone out. Him, usually, a him would be freaked out. So, like, everything about the dating game is designed to trick or, like, Sort of massage the truth so that you get another opportunity with a guy who probably isn't a good fit for you. It's infuriating. And yeah.

Jessi Kneelan:

Oh, my god. All of the speaking up. All of the things. I love it. And just watching just watching what happens. Like, when you say, Yeah. I have crygasms, and that seems like a lot right now, so let's just hold off on that. And, like, how does he handle it? That gives you So much information.

Jessi Kneelan:

If you say I want kids and I want them, like, yesterday, how does he handle that? That gives you so much information. It prevents a lot of time wasting, and I feel like there's something about, like, faking orgasms where, you know obviously, it's very normalized for a lot of women and femmes who do it. It just feels like it kinda gets the job done faster. You know, like, for it boosts his ego, makes him feel good, so then you don't have to do the emotional labor of caretaking, why it didn't work out, whatever it is. The pressure off. There's so many reasons people do it. But, essentially, what you're doing is you are training someone to give you bad sex. That is what you're doing.

Jessi Kneelan:

Literally.

Freya Graf:

And if

Jessi Kneelan:

that's the person you Land on sleeping with for an extended period of time doesn't really harm him much. Definitely gonna harm you in your sex life. That's what all of this is. When you show up and you pretend to be what he wants or what you perceive he wants or what you think men want, you are Setting yourself up for a bad relationship. You are the one who gets harmed. It's it seems so simple, but it's So so counter to everything we learned as women that we are supposed to make him comfortable and center his ego and his feelings and and just Sort of pretend to be what other people want in the hopes that we'll get another chance to be near them.

Freya Graf:

Totally. And that's why I, like, I really fucking can love what you're about and your work and all of these, like, incredible pieces of wisdom that have been coming out with, like, your Ugly project and just Yeah. This whole concept of, like, alright, can you have enough self worth and confidence and be liberated enough To become intentionally repellent to the people that wanna objectify you, disrespect you, Like, you know, sexualize you. Like, it cross your boundaries, you know, and just generally kind of Yeah. Yeah. Go for ahead.

Jessi Kneelan:

I was gonna say I think that it really freaks people out, actually. So instead of running Project Ugly as, like, an 8 week course, I'm gonna break it up at this point. One of the reasons is because I feel like it's a lot of pressure, because people get really freaked out about thinking that they have to become ugly. Like, that just right there, they're, like, that's a lovely idea for you and other people, and And I am not doing that. Right? Like, the it's it's scary.

Freya Graf:

Exactly.

Jessi Kneelan:

But in the content, in the syllabus and everything, like, most of it is not actually about Beauty labor. That is one element. 1. Yeah. I believe worthiness. Yeah. It's about everything you just named. Right? It's like about self advocacy and boundaries.

Jessi Kneelan:

It's about holding men accountable. It's about not Smiling at a sexist joke. Right? Like, it's about all it's about breaking all of the rules that we learned make us likable as women and femmes or make us desirable. Not Hot, necessarily, although that can certainly be a part of it. Just what men prefer us to be, which includes people who do more domestic and emotional labor in our Holds. Right? Like, just that alone, it would make you repellent to be a person who demanded equal domestic labor from your partner. That is going to upset some people. And it's all of those things.

Jessi Kneelan:

It's about allowing yourself to not only step into and say, like, Hey. It's okay. I deserve to take up equal space, but I deserve to know who's gonna be pissed if I take up equal space so that I don't spend more time with them.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Fucking earth. Like, it just popped into my head another way that I Did this sort of thing where I was it wasn't about being hot, but it was about appealing and being more desirable to men, even just as a friend and, like, gaining respect And status. And it was like, I fully rejected my, femininity and was wanting to be a tomboy, wanting to be one of the boys, you know, quote, unquote. I would, like, act really bro y and And, you know, smile at the sexist jokes. I was trying to, like, I guess what what's the word when you're trying to Not acclimate. Oh, anyway, I was trying to fit in, basically Yeah. With the boys in order to gain acceptance and belonging.

Freya Graf:

And then other other people's versions of that is to try to be, like, desirable and attractive to them and, like, get that attention and validation, and they really get off on that, You know, because they've attached their sense of self worth, you know, to how much attention and validation they Get from men. And and in one shape or form, we're both doing the same fucking thing. You know? We're just trying to we're trying to gain, like, some modicum of, respect and and influence, and validation in a patriarchal system. You know?

Jessi Kneelan:

Yeah. And a lot of it comes down to scarcity. So especially for people who are struggling with the dating space, the feeling of If you are attracted to men, wanna date men, and that's your only option, the feeling of one of the good ones Even though the bar is set so freaking low, there is a sense that there are so few good ones that you must do all this work to keep them. We are taught scarcity around good men. So with that in mind, it Does kinda make sense to manipulate your way into a 3rd, 4th, 5th date. Right? Like, if there's only a couple of good men out there and you might have caught 1, You gotta do it. However, I think, first of all, this totally misunderstands good men. Second of all, there actually is a pretty big abundance.

Jessi Kneelan:

The world is very Big. It depends on where you are. Not every market is gonna be big. I get that. It it can totally be context dependent. But there are a lot of men out there doing really interesting, good, deep work. It's just that you won't meet them if you have filled your life with guys that you had to sort of suck up to by laughing at sexist jokes in order to fill that Feeling of, like, this tank must be filled now. Like, there's urgency and scarcity, and it makes us fill these tanks.

Jessi Kneelan:

And then our perception ends up being Most men suck. So then we take that back out into the dating pool if a relationship ends or whatever and feel even more like we must hold on to one of those Good men, if we find 1. Right? Like, it makes us crazy. And, honestly, having higher standards benefits the entire pool, the entire marketplace. Standards go up.

Freya Graf:

Just like

Jessi Kneelan:

with women wearing wearing more makeup or whatever. Like, when a standard goes up for a good reason, that's Pretty good thing to participate in. So even just being like, I refuse to partner with a man who won't do equal labor or who isn't in therapy or who whatever it is. Like, Yeah. You are making the pool smaller, and it makes sense that you would feel urgency and scarcity. We've all learned to feel those ways. But, ultimately, Then we'll figure it out.

Freya Graf:

Totally. And I think, like, that thing you said about raising the Bar, I've just there's I've been having so many thoughts and conversations about this lately where I'm just realizing, like, Holy shit. The bar is low in terms of expectations with men and, like and and really high in terms of expectations on us.

Jessi Kneelan:

And

Freya Graf:

I think, like like I was telling, I was talking to a client yesterday and saying To her, like, good fucking on you for telling that dude on the 1st date that, no, you're not gonna give him a blow job in the car and and, you know, refusing to see him again when he tried to Push it again after, I was like, thank you. Like, you are literally not only are you, like, asserting your boundaries and, you You know, in a really empowering way, but you're doing a community service for other women out there because, like, this dude has obviously just gotten away with this to this Point. And if someone doesn't pull him up and call him out on it, he's gonna keep fucking doing it to other women who do not have the boundaries and the confidence to say no and who are gonna be fucking traumatized by having to go along with something and allow something. And it's just like community service doing it.

Jessi Kneelan:

Perfect way to put it.

Freya Graf:

Right? I feel like I'm constantly doing a community service, like, not just in my work, but, like, in my personal life. All the fucking time. I'm having a good taste for everyone.

Jessi Kneelan:

I do shit. And, you know, it's interesting because, like so when I went on antidepressants a few years ago, I gained, like, a for me, a really significant amount of weight. And I kinda loved it. I felt, like, so confident and so badass about being able to be in the world, not as a I mean, still very relatively thin. But for me, I felt like it Was the 1st time I kinda, like, stepped out of a particular body size category, and I was, like, this is awesome because I still get to like myself, and now everyone gets to see it's not body size dependent. Like, it felt like a community service. It made me happy. Sometimes I wanna shave my head again just to do the same thing, like,

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Jessi Kneelan:

I want people to I just happen to like it. It's like a lion's mane right now. But, like, there is so much power in the more of us who do it. Speaking of and holding men accountable, constantly, when I lived in New York, I would, like, turn to a man on the subway and say in a loud voice, That was your hand on my butt, and I didn't like how that felt or whatever so that the women around me could hear it. Doesn't matter what he's gonna like, it just so other people were able To realize you could do that, it gives other people permission when they see it. And it means that, like, if you speak up to a guy about the blowjob thing, And this is the 1st he's ever heard of a woman having boundaries or consent. Like, he's probably gonna react pretty poorly or his stuff is gonna come out. Right? It's scary and dangerous.

Jessi Kneelan:

However, if every woman he's ever hooked up with did it, we're looking at a different situation. So there is so much power in numbers. The more of us who do this stuff, who don't laugh along at at jokes that are inappropriate or comments or whatever, who, Like, hold people accountable for their behaviors and disrespect and objectification. Call it out for what it is. We make the world better and safer for everyone. It feels really good and empowering for ourselves, but, like, this is a huge reason I do it. I'm working with it.

Freya Graf:

Oh my god. Absolutely. Me too. And I do it because Well, I do it because I don't have a choice. That's just who I am and how I feel, my heart. Not really like. But but I do recognize that, You know, it's not as and it's and it's still it's still hard for me in certain situations with certain sort of, like, less progressive or less conscious men. You know, it feels like pushing shit uphill, and I it's really uncomfortable, but I do it anyway because I'm committed to that.

Freya Graf:

But, like, I recognize that, you know, This is not easy for everyone. In fact, sometimes it's nearly impossible. And and so I do it, like, as well for the people that Can't have that you know, people really struggle with communication in general, let alone boundaries, let alone, you know, anything to do with Sex. Like, we are just so deeply programmed to be people pleasing and self sacrificing and to kinda make ourselves To to massage the other person's needs and stuff and change ourselves. You know? So I I understand, you know, that People like, a lot of my clients are like, oh my god. I could never say that or I could never do that. I'm like, okay. Well, let's find something that, like, is a little bit more manageable So that we're not completely encouraging this behavior from men.

Freya Graf:

And so I I do it because it's like, I can. You know, I've done so much work. I am quite confident. I am very, like, assertive. And so I'm gonna fucking do it, you know, for the people that that can't do that yet.

Jessi Kneelan:

A lot of times with women who are dating, my clients, I mean, I will have them craft a text days after they've had to process unfreeze, Recognize they were in a fawn response, didn't say anything, felt uncomfortable, blamed themselves for a little while, figured out that's not the move. Right? Like, it takes time. And then I will help them craft a text that just says, I didn't like how that night ended. I wish you wouldn't have pushed so hard or whatever. Right? Like, just so that it got sent.

Freya Graf:

So that they Yes.

Jessi Kneelan:

Recognize that someone in every room they go in will protect them even if they can't do it in the moment. Because a lot of times that Deep trauma shit. Like, we go into survival mode and we can't speak up. It takes time and practice and time and practice to unlearn that and unthaw. But, like, It starts with the safe things. The text Yeah. A week later to say, I wish you wouldn't have done that. That made me uncomfortable.

Freya Graf:

Yes. That's such good advice. Yeah. Obviously, sometimes in the moment, you freeze, you go into fond, you just don't know how to handle that. There's a lot of layers Involved in that, sometimes trauma, sometimes lack of communication skills, self work. Afterwards, though, like, we can all construct a text. You know, you can fucking send a text and immediately block the number if you need to.

Jessi Kneelan:

Exactly. Really important. Even on apps where it's like, you're about to unmatch them, But to have said the thing first Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jessi Kneelan:

It it empowers you and, you know, you've done this community service in the world that the next time he goes on a date, Someone has said to him at least once what you did didn't feel okay. The end. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Exactly. You can be planting seeds. You can be kind of laying like, tilling the earth for the next woman that comes along because, you know, she might be in an even less Sort of empowered situation than you. And so, yeah, it it very much is looking out for each other. It's forcing The the sort of standards to start to raise.

Jessi Kneelan:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

You know, I also like to do it on the flip side of that, like, raising the standards for, like how we treat people, like, I think all of the the ghosting and the, like, kind of lack of accountability, especially in the dating world. Like, You know, I always try to make a point of, like, being very human and being very, like, you're human. I'm a human. This is what's up. I'm not interested for these reasons, but, like, Really, you know, lovely to meet you. I'm in a bounce out now rather than ghosting with 0 explanation, making them fucking get all neurotic and make up all these things in their head. You know, like, it's just not that fucking hard. And I think, like, I think yeah.

Freya Graf:

It's something I'm really passionate about is just Setting an example for how you Yeah. You know So operate.

Jessi Kneelan:

I did this workshop once in New York City On self advocating, setting boundaries, and speaking up, which is so funny because this was, like, 8 years ago. And now that I'm, like, making project ugly and, like, talking about it again, I'm, like, I How did I I just took a little breather from this whole topic. But it it was something that I felt really strongly about for always pretty much. But, like, what Came up in that workshop over and over and over. We kept doing, like, role play stuff, and the women would be like, okay. I'm in the role. And I'm just gonna, like, tell them How I feel about this, you know, pretend environment where I'm being hit on and pressured or whatever. And they would, like, turn to me and go, I don't know what to say.

Jessi Kneelan:

And I'm like, okay. Well, What would you say if you did if you knew for sure it was gonna be received well? Like, what's I would call it the truthiest truth. Because there's, like, the truth is, like, you don't wanna hurt his feelings. The truth is, maybe you're not attracted to him, but, also, you do the like, those those can all be true. But there's a truthier truth underneath, which is, like, I'm not interested Or I wish you would leave, or I don't like how you're talking to me, or I just don't feel good around you. Right? Like, the truthiest truth is usually, like, a very short, concise sentence. And by giving women that cue, every single time they would turn back, and it was, like, a 4 sent sorry. Like, a 4 word sentence Every time.

Jessi Kneelan:

Because when you really get down to it, the only reason you don't know what to say is you're trying to manage their feelings and speak enough of your truth. Like, it's a navigation. It's a negotiation. No wonder it's complicated, and you don't know what to say. If you just hold yourself accountable for your experience, it's actually pretty simple.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. I didn't like that. And it can be done in, like, a gentle, loving way, of course. Like, you Yeah. Know but but I think it's just important to be upfront about these things, and it just takes away the guesswork so that we're not all neurotic fucking Crazy is just being like, oh my god. Like, you know, you invent so much shit in your head when you don't have an explanation From the other person. Yeah. So I think it's just really important to remember, like, we're all people doing our best, and it's It's a loving thing to do to be upfront even if that thing is to reject them.

Freya Graf:

You know? It's better to do that. You know? Anyway To

Jessi Kneelan:

the end, I will say the difference between kind and nice here. So I believe everybody is sort of held to a standard Kindness. I don't know that we actually do a good job of meeting it, but there is a sort of cultural standard to be kind. But nice nice as a gendered standard. Women are expected to be nice. We are expected to be pleasant and sugarcoat our words and for taking up too much space and, like right? It's like niceness is about centering someone else. Kindness is not. So in this kind of situation, a lot of times, Women are trying to be nice, like, they don't wanna tell him that that what he's doing doesn't feel good because that wouldn't be nice.

Jessi Kneelan:

But it would actually be kind because it would make him better in bed ultimately, even if not with you. Right? Like, the kind thing is often very different than the nice thing. And we are taught like, I don't know about you, but nice is, like, the number one compliment I ever got. Nice, sweet, pretty, cute. Like, these were the words I heard as a compliment as a kid. Like, oh my god. I really like Jussie. Like, she's so nice.

Jessi Kneelan:

If I hear that now, I'm like, I don't we have what have we met? I don't understand what you're saying. I'm not nice. I do believe I'm kind, But kind comes with empowerment. Right? It comes with, like, a moral code to be human with another person like what you're saying. That is kind to say I'm not interested or I'm feeling a friend vibe, so I don't want us to go out again. Like, that is not nice because it It doesn't hold their experience as more important than yours, but it is kind.

Freya Graf:

Oh my god. That's such a cool I've actually never thought about that. Thanks for, yeah, differentiating between the 2. Yeah. Nice is so much just appeasing, whereas kindness is like it's it's like coming back to that community service. It's like Holding ourselves and others to this standard of, like, doing what's more, you know, gonna be more constructive, what's right, what's actually going to Create positive change. Yeah. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

So good. My English teacher in primary school, I remember the 1st day we started with her, she was like, okay. In my class, You are not allowed to use the words nice or good. They are not words. They do not like, she was just, like, they're fucking bullshit adjectives. Dude,

Jessi Kneelan:

that was

Freya Graf:

yeah. I was in, like, grade 3. I still remember it. I was, like, fucking, yeah. Totally. Like, Surely, you can come up with a better one.

Jessi Kneelan:

I like the just do better too. Right? It's like yeah. Those that's fine. But we can do better. We can do better. It's kinda like at this point if someone was complimenting me on my appearance, like, if that was the if that was being hit on was, like, focused on objectifying me. I just I don't even consider it a compliment anymore. I'm, like, actually a little bit, like, really? That's what you're getting out of this? Because I got a lot going on.

Jessi Kneelan:

But, like, ultimately, I'm not offended. I just really want someone who can do better and do better.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. I think I just, like, respect someone just that tiny bit less if the compliments they're giving me are just all appearance based. I'm like, okay. So, like, the I'm a Hilarious, absolute bitch. And that's what you're taking away from this? I've got a nice body or, like, my curly hair, like, that's a fucking that's low hanging It's fruit, dude. Everyone loves girls. Get over it. Do better.

Freya Graf:

Okay. Hey. Me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it 5 stars on whatever For me listening on, I want to mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote, Tea, togs. Yep. You heard that right. I even have labia lounge bathers. Or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back.

Freya Graf:

So, if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my Buy Me A Coffee donation page, which is actually called Buy Me A Soy Chai Latte because I'll be the 1st to admit, I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that, and yes, that is my coffee order. You can do a one soft donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as 3 fat ones a month. And I also offer 1 on 1 coaching Ching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way. So every bit helps because it ain't cheap to put out a sweet podcast, into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be undyingly for if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself. Saucy. And, I'll pop the links in the show notes.

Freya Graf:

Thank you. Later. Alright. Cool. So in the interest of trying to Keep keep well, we've already gone over time, but anyway, what are a couple of things that people can do It's like small little actions or steps. I mean, we've peppered them throughout the episode, but just to tie a bow on it. You know, little action steps To embrace their ugliness, to be intentionally repellent to the people that we don't wanna attract anyway, And just to start, like, unhooking from the patriarchal and gendered narratives and scripts and rules that we usually quite unconsciously follow. Like, how do we bring it into the consciousness? How do we do like, what are some easy things? Because like you were saying, it's fucking terrifying for most people.

Freya Graf:

Like, the the name of Project ugly and all of that's that's daunting. That's confronting. Perhaps that's, you know, that's that's too Too much? Like, too, we're expecting too much from people right off the bat. How do we ease into this and, like, put little things in place in a more, Approachable way. Yeah. Because not everyone's dung ho is you and I.

Jessi Kneelan:

Right. I'll give you one of my favorite tools, which the reason I do it this way and the reason this is my answer is because it's So context dependent. Like, we were talking about before, if you do the same action from a totally different place, one might cost you a lot Or have a big benefit in the other totally opposite. Right? So what I recommend everybody do if they wanna, like, play in this space a little bit is to make a list of some of the rules they follow in order to be and you can fill in the blank here, like, attractive, beautiful, Hot, desirable, feminine, like, whatever you want. But just you are following a set of rules using your appearance to either Prove how people see you or curate how people see you or whatever. Make a list of them and then notice which ones and by the way, if you're looking in your head To find rules, they almost always start with I can't or I have to. So any thoughts in that space, whether it's beauty labor or behavioral? Like, I can't, you know, speak up when my boss says something that may be true or not true, but, like, Those are the ones we're looking for. Jot a bunch of them down and then check-in with yourself about each one and ask, is this Worth it because some of them absolutely will be.

Jessi Kneelan:

Not speaking up to a sexist boss who could, like, ruin your career is probably a good call. Benefit, very high. Cost, probably pretty low. Like, sure, maybe you feel shitty about self silencing, but it's gonna be ultimately keep that rule. Right? But you wanna look for a couple of the rules where the cost is really high. The benefit's really low. Meaning, I feel super anxious anytime I don't wear, like, you know, foundation, concealer, mascara, whatever the thing might be. And I don't know that it's necessarily making me feel more confident.

Jessi Kneelan:

At this point, it just feels like I have to do it or else I will you know, people will think I look sick and I'll feel really, really bad about myself. That might be one worth challenging. So start breaking the rules that have too high of a cost or too low of a benefit. You can do baby steps. It doesn't have to be all at once. Recognize that, like, the point is not to stop wearing concealer or mascara because those things are bad, but just to break free from the power that this rule has over you. And then keep going if you enjoy it and it's empowering and you feel freer, which most people will because breaking rules that we have been beholden to almost always reveals

Freya Graf:

That

Jessi Kneelan:

the rule was make believe and that the consequences even if they're negative, like, everybody works as you look sick. You're also like, oh, well, I guess I can live with that. Like, I I'm here on the other side of work where everybody said I looked sick and tired. Like, it's not as bad of a consequence as we feel in our bodies. Even if it's uncomfortable, we realize, oh, we have more resilience than we realized going into this. It build confidence. It build self trust. Builds a lot of really good stuff.

Jessi Kneelan:

So if you like it, keep going. Keep adding to the list. Keep breaking the rules bit by bit Because there will always be some that you go, I don't even think I like, this rule sucks. This rule is costing me a lot. Like, if it's expensive and it's costing me a lot literally, if it's time consuming, it's costing me a lot of time. If it's taking up a huge amount of emotional or mental real estate in my life And the payoff is, like, I guess I feel a little less anxious. Challenge that one. Totally.

Freya Graf:

Totally. And, yeah, it doesn't have to be cold turkey all at once. You know? You can just Slowly dismantle it bit by bit and go for the the small easy ones to start with and see how that goes. And it's you do acclimate to it. You know? Like, Yeah. I mean, I remember when my mom's finally stopped dying her hair, her gray hair, and she just did grace for gray. That was, you know, you needed it. Yeah.

Jessi Kneelan:

At first, it's weird. All transitions are weird. But I will also say

Freya Graf:

that a

Jessi Kneelan:

lot of this stuff the ones I've just named are about taking away beauty labor in a lot of ways. But there's also so many rules that we follow in the behavioral space that I think those are also gonna be high reward, low cost For the most part. But figure it out for the context for you because, like, everybody is different. Everybody's situation is different. If you can start telling People that you didn't think their sexist joke was funny, that might be a good one to start with. It builds the skill. It builds the resilience. It builds the confidence.

Jessi Kneelan:

And if you work or live or whatever in a place where that's literally not safe for you, do not break that one. Like, everybody gets it aside for themselves, And that's why I feel like starting with the inventory is so important.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And and on that sort of behavioral Side of things. Like, one that I've been talking to people about a fair bit lately, which again, another community service, Is like being an active bystander. So it doesn't even necessarily mean you've gotta you've gotta be standing up For yourself to your boss or, you know, whatever, it it can be and because I think some people find it easier to do things and put their neck out For other people than themselves, because of this lack of self worth and confidence. And so maybe this is a cool one that you can start, you know, Trying. It's like if you see someone on, you know, public transport or in a communal space Being harassed by a man or talked to in a way that, you know, is disrespectful or if you're out on a dance floor, like, Sort of I'm I'm often noticing this sort of stuff, in, like, party dance floor spaces. And there's, like, there's, like, a woman being harassed or treated not not super nice. You can you don't even necessarily have to get in Their crosshairs, you can literally just sort of position yourself so that you sit or stand next to the woman out of silent solidarity.

Freya Graf:

You can get into the perpetrator's eye line and just kinda, like, disapprovingly shake your head. You know, ideally, if you're in a public space, like, And it's safe because there's other people around. You can express, you know, that you don't support that person, and you can express That you support the the person being sort of victimized, in subtle ways, or you can actually say something and be like, that's really inappropriate. You can't talk to someone like that, or She's not interested. Like, often I'm advocating for, like, these poor women on the dance floor that's, like, you know, getting harassed repeatedly by a guy they're clearly not interested in. And I'll just go up to them and be like, hey. Like, are you okay? Are you are you down with this? Is he fucking is he bothering you? And, and they'll be like, oh, yeah. Like, it's, You know it's fine, though.

Freya Graf:

Like, he's harmless, but, like, you know, I'm, yeah, a bit annoying, not interested. And I'm like, well, that's not fucking harmless. Seriously. And so I'll, like, say something to the guy, or I'll go talk to the bouncers, and I'll get him kicked out. You know? Like, fuck do it. Make a scene. Make waves. Like, Yep.

Freya Graf:

Or if that's too daunting for you, which is totally understandable because not everyone's hardcore like me, Just do little things like shake your head, go stand by the person, like, give them some kind of company and solidarity, and just make sure they're okay. You know? Like, that's That's something that we can

Jessi Kneelan:

be doing as well. I also wanna name that letting yourself tap into anger is gonna be one of those rules that we all have to break. Because anger is a evolutionary signal from our bodies that says a boundary has been violated or an injustice has just taken place whether it's against us or it's Again, someone else. If you, especially as a girl, learned that anger is not appropriate or makes you unlikable or it won't be welcome or safe, Like, that is one of the first rules to start breaking, tapping into anger because that allows you to notice that this is an injustice happening in front of me, like, to me or to that girl. Like, You can't even really notice that you'll just blame yourself or her if you haven't allowed yourself to tune into the fact that there is a signal in your body that says boundary violation, Injustice. So anger is a superpower, makes us come off as less likable, agreeable, nice, pleasant, Attractive, all the things, but it is one of the most potent rules to break.

Freya Graf:

I think

Jessi Kneelan:

one of the most impactful.

Freya Graf:

Get fierce. Get fierce, everyone. Fuck. Yeah. Well, this has been an absolutely stellar conversation. Thank you so much, Jesse. So fun. Love you.

Freya Graf:

And I'll pop links to your work in the show notes. Everyone, go follow Jesse. I'm looking forward to whatever shape or form Project ugly takes when you're ready to release that into the world. And, yeah, just really grateful for all your insights and Just awesome fucking conversations. Yeah.

Jessi Kneelan:

Thanks for having me. This was awesome.

Freya Graf:

And that's it, darling hearts. Thank you for stopping by the labia lounge. Your bum grooving the couch will be right where you left it, just waiting for you to sink back in for some more double l action next time. And in the meantime, if you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode, or leave a review on iTunes, then you can Pat yourself on the snatch because that, my dear, is a downright act of sex positive feminist activism. And you'd be my vision to educate, empower, demystify, and destigmatize with this here podcast. Also, I'm always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered or guest suggestions. So feel free to get in touch via my website at freyagraf.com or say hi over on Insta. My handle is freyagraf_thelabialounge and I seriously hope you're following me on there because damn, We have fun.

Freya Graf:

We have fun. Anyway, later labial legends. I'll see you next time.