Jessa:

This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets.

Freya Graf:

Welcome. Welcome, my lovely lumps, or should I say lovely labs? I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge. We're gonna yarn about all things sexuality, womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health, and everything in between. Your legs. Oh, can't help myself. Anyway, we're gonna have Vagloads of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up. You're about to receive the sex ed that you never had and and have a bloody good laugh while you're at it.

Freya Graf:

Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in Naarm, and I pay respect to their elders past, present, and emerging. Now if you're all ready, let's flap and do this. Oh my god. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. It's my podcast. I'm leaving it in. Hey, Yang.

Freya Graf:

Just before we jump into this episode, I wanted to offer you an opportunity to access my new mini course for free before I start charging for it in future. It's for people with vulvas and it's quick to complete. It's all about demystifying the female body and pleasure anatomy and getting some basic fundamentals to understand your body better. It's called Pussy Pleasure Secrets, Your Roadmap to Bedroom Bliss. You can grab it on the freebies page of my website or in the show notes. It's a great little free resource to dip your toe in or act as a bit of a taster for my work. So if you've ever been curious about this sort of thing and you just don't know where to start or you want a really quick, easy, accessible, non threatening way to get the ball rolling and start working on this stuff, this is a great place to start. Hey, labial love bugs.

Freya Graf:

I'm super thrilled to have you back in the lounge today with me, and I'm very excited because we're gonna be covering a topic that I've really, really long wanted to address and that I get asked about a lot. So it's a very common thing that people struggle with, and that is what to do when you and your partner have different levels of libido and desire for sex. And I've got an incredibly knowledgeable and clever guest on today to help us navigate this common conundrum. Welcome, Jessa.

Jessa:

Thank you so much for having me.

Freya Graf:

So Jessa Zimmerman is a certified sex therapist and couples counsellor. She specialises in helping couples who have a good relationship but who are avoiding sex because it's become stressful, negative, disappointing, or pressured. She educates, coaches, and supports people as they go through her intimacy with ease process that allows them real world practice in changing their relationship and their sex life, guiding them to become easily intimate. She's the author of Sex Without Stress, the host of the Better Sex Podcast, and the creator of the Intimacy With Ease method. So Jessa knows a thing or two about what to do when you're faced with this challenge in an otherwise busy relationship. Yeah. So I'm pretty excited to get stuck in. Does that all sound good to you, Tessa?

Jessa:

It certainly does.

Freya Graf:

So this has gotta be one of the most common things that I hear in my work as well. Yeah. It just seems to be, especially in long term relationships, once that honeymoon kind of excitement and novelty dies down, that there becomes, yeah, evidence of a pretty big discrepancy and desire that can become a gaping chasm where these 2 people just can't seem to meet in the middle. I hear time and time again things like sex feels like a chore, it's something to get out of the way or, you know, even pretend you're asleep so that you can avoid. I hear that there's guilt for not giving a partner what they need, or that, you know, especially with some of the women I work with, that they're avoiding any kind of affection like cuddling and kissing because of the fear of where that will lead, and, you know, feelings of obligation or pressure or expectation to have sex if they even engage in any kind of, you know, affection or intimacy. So I know that you focus on couples who already have a pretty healthy and balanced relationship, and it's totally possible for there to just be, like, a genuine gap in, like, someone's sort of objective or natural libido levels. I'm sure that's not influenced by relationship factors. But in my experience, quite often when I'm working with clients, it becomes pretty obvious that, what they feel is a difference in, like, a natural level of libido is actually not so much an indicator of libido levels, but it's actually down to, like, other factors.

Freya Graf:

So I was really curious to chat with you because, like, I'm wondering how you rule out the possibility that the difference in desire to have sex is actually due to things like the higher libido partner, you know, kind of having this attitude of expecting sex or thinking it's their they're entitled to it and that it's their partner's duty and then kind of therefore putting pressure on this or behaving as though it's, like, owed to them. Or, you know, some other really common ones, like the lower libido partner, is just carrying, like, a really massive mental and emotional load within that household compared to the higher libido partner. So, of course, they're not gonna feel like having sex as much, or they feel like their intimacy needs aren't being met, and they don't feel super respected or adored, or the the sex that they're having is a bit shit, and it's not even that pleasurable for them. So, like, why would they prioritize that? You know? So there's all of these Right. Kind of, you know, like, really common things that I hear where I'm like, oh, that doesn't even really sound like it's a libido issue so much as, you know, there's some very, very rational, valid reasons why you don't desire sex as much, but it's not that you wouldn't if the sex was great or if you felt respected or if your needs were being met. So, yeah, I guess, like, how do you start to ex excavate the true reasons, like, leading to that discrepancy and desire?

Jessa:

I can't believe how much you jam packed into one question, first of all. Now if I could first, I just I just wanna I wanna go back and just say I have heard all of that also. Right? It feels like a chore. It feels like an obligation. You know, all this stuff worried about something is wrong. Yeah. It's so common. And I would actually say, not only are people likely to run and desire discrepancy, they will.

Jessa:

It is inevitable that 2 people are going to have differences in libido, Because why would any 2 people want exactly the same amount of sex, right? So, somebody's going to be the higher desired person. Someone's going to be the lower desired person.

Freya Graf:

And it fluctuates.

Jessa:

Oh, absolutely. It's relative to each other in this point in time. It's not somebody has high libido or low libido. It's higher and lower with your partner right now. So somebody could have been the higher desire partner, and at this point, they're the lower. Or in another relationship, they were the higher desire person. In this one, they're lower. It does fluctuate.

Jessa:

That's not an identity. But to get to the crux of your question, there's what is each person's sort of desire potential that they could have, and those might be different, and what are the obstacles that are making this worse? What are the things in the way? Because you do I think we have to do both things. We have to be looking at all the kinds of barriers and obstacles and sort of the traps of desire discrepancy, some of which you named, that people get into that make it worse, and maybe somebody not wants sex that blocks somebody's sexual desire, sexual functioning, or sexual pleasure, and what can we do to foster desire? And, you know, what kind of opens that up? And that's a really important discussion between the difference of what I call proactive desire and reactive desire, or Emily Nagoski called it spontaneous desire and responsive desire, because a lot of people think of libido like I'm supposed to just be in the mood and want it, but that's not how it works for an awful lot of people. So, even when we're thinking about somebody's natural level of libido, we have to start talking about reactive desire and what's possible for people in that arena.

Freya Graf:

Yep. Such a good point. Yeah. I love loved learning about that years ago when I read Emily Nagoski's book, and I was like, oh my god. I've got responsive desire. That makes so much sense. So it's such a common thing I teach people about because it's a real game changer once you realize that. And then all of a sudden, it's not like, oh, my body's broken, and I've got a low libido.

Freya Graf:

It's like, oh, my body's functioning exactly how it's designed, and it's not at all about my libido. There just aren't, you know, things that are making me feel really safe and therefore, providing a a nice container for my arousal to unfold or blossom. Like, I'm not just gonna get spontaneously horny at the drop of a hat, but that doesn't mean that you have a low libido. Cool. So what are the

Jessa:

What I was gonna say, so many clients that I've worked with, they'll come into me and say, Oh, I've got no libido. And then I describe reactive desire and how you could potentially get in the mood, and they say, Well, yeah, that happens. Like, they totally dismiss. They don't recognize that that's a really valid way of having desire. So not only do you not have to you not only have to feel safe, but you have to get what you need, the touch you need, the time you need. It's a different on ramp, you know, when you're starting from 0 then. Back in the day, when you used to come in like, people know what to do between 50 and a100, but 0 to 50 is often unfamiliar territory to people. So they don't understand.

Jessa:

They need to find a different kind of a different way in. It might be slower. It might not be sexual to start with, whatever it is.

Freya Graf:

Totally. And I yeah. I think, like, because we don't really see I guess, we don't see it modeled to us, that 0 to 50, like, different kind of approach, the on ramp. I love that phrase you used. And we mostly see model to us, like, very spontaneous, like, I'm DTF immediately. Like, we get horny and, like, five seconds flat and all of a sudden Right.

Jessa:

Rip rip each other's clothes off and go.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. I know. And it really seems to be rewarded and glorified this really sort of quick, wham, bam, thank you, ma'am, spontaneous, spontaneously aroused blueprint for sexuality. And so I think, yeah, like you said, it just gets completely ignored and undervalued and dismissed as though that's not a valid or beautiful way for your, you know, desire pattern to be. Right. But I think it's less convenient in this hard and fast kind of, you know, like, goal oriented, outcome oriented world, and we sometimes I mean, I I know it's quite common for women to have more, responsive or reactive desire, and they kinda feel like, man, that's a bit of a bummer. I wish I wish it was more spontaneous. I wish I could get turned on more quickly.

Freya Graf:

Like, it's annoying that I have to take this amount of time and that I need these stars to align before I can get in the mood. Like, gosh, how inconvenient and annoying, which, you know, it's easy to feel that way in the way that this world is structured, but, I think it just calls it calls on us to be more compassionate and patient with our bodies, and it calls on our partners to have a greater understanding and just put in the effort. Yeah.

Jessa:

There's there's something too. It can be a real struggle for people to ask for what they need and and let that attention come to them, not only inconvenient, but, like, really uncomfortable to, like you know, people feel like a burden or something like that, right, and they struggle Taking too long. Right. To take the space and to take the time and to ask for what they actually need can be a burden. And then it's also complicated because not everybody, but for a lot of people, they had more spontaneous desire at the beginning of their relationship. You know, the brain chemistry is different, right? So, it can be kind of hot in the beginning, and it's easy, and we come in hot. We're ready to go. That wham bam, thank you, man, works better.

Jessa:

And with the change towards reactive desire that so many people experience, often people are thinking something's wrong, something is broken. It's not just it's not just sort of inconvenient. It's like, this isn't how it used to be, and now it's different. So something must have broken, which is not true, but that's where people go. And then there's this loss involved with it and fear involved with it. And and they really don't know what to do from 0 to 50. Like, this is they haven't had to explore that before. So it's like, this is all new territory.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's, it's really sad when and especially now with, like, the dating culture, how it is, it's so much more kind of throwaway. And people are maybe more inclined to just bail early if they think there's something wrong with the relationship because, you know, their desires disappeared. And I'm like, that is very normal natural stage that this is where you actually have to, you know, like, double down and I mean, it's I'm not speaking for all relationships. Some relationships should end in the beginning, but some people might abandon ship or think that there's something wrong, whereas, yeah, it's actually just a a next kind of stage of that that Right. Relationship that is kind asking a little bit more of them.

Freya Graf:

And it's sad when, I mean, people often say, like, I wanna get back to how we were in the beginning. Why can't it be? You know? And it's like, oh, well, it's kinda like having a baby and being like, I wanna get back to having my pre baby body. Like, things are different and that is okay and also good. Like, it's not worse, or less than. It's, you know, potentially a bit more challenging and uncomfortable. Like, a lot of women I work with really struggle to receive. We've been brought up to be people pleasing and to put other people's needs first. So Right.

Freya Graf:

It's tough for us to, like, ask for what we need and sometimes we don't know what we need because like you said, we haven't had it we haven't had to, like, learn that 0 to 50 bit yet because we've been able to just skip ahead. Right. But yeah. Okay. So what are some of the most common reasons that you find are causing couples to sort of start experiencing a discrepancy in libido?

Jessa:

Well, again, the discrepancy is totally normal and predictable. So there's not really a reason for that. That's just going to emerge once that initial infatuation period goes by, if they have that. But some of the things that are gonna make it worse are, first of all, for the higher desire partner to take it personally. So, so many of them see their partner's lack of desire, a lowering of desire, and feel like this is rejection. This is about me. This means they don't find me attractive anymore. And I mean, I get how they the train of thought that gets in there, but it isn't true.

Jessa:

It's just a thought. And if you do take it personally and feel rejected, first of all, you're not going to it's needless suffering, right? But you're also more likely to behave in a way that's not gonna be super engaging to your partner. You know, you get sulky or pouty or down or angry and resentful, whatever it is. None of that makes you a more engaging partner. And it also changes the meaning of sex because now my partner needs to have sex with me so I feel better about myself or so I feel better about the relationship. Now it's not, oh, the 2 of us are going to this wonderful place together and sharing this thing. Now there's something to prove, or I need to have sex you so you won't be pouty tomorrow, or super quiet and withdrawn, or whatever. So that's a big trap for the higher desire person.

Jessa:

For the lower desire person, well, both of them can feel like the lower desire partner's broken. Their libido's dropped down. What's wrong with you? You should see a therapist. You should go to the doctor. You should consider, you know, hormone supplements, whatever it is. The the presumption that something is wrong with that person is not gonna help because nothing is broken, but feeling broken is not an empowered place to be. That doesn't make somebody wanna deal with this or engage, right? And I guess another trap I see is, and this either person could sort of suggest this, but this idea of, Let's just leave it to the lower desire person to initiate. You know, I'm always up for it.

Jessa:

You just let me know when you're ready. Or the lower desire person might say, you know what? Get off my back. Let me just tell you when I'm interested. Or maybe they don't say this. It becomes like a test. I've I've heard this too from higher and higher persons. I'm just gonna stop initiating and see how long it is before my partner brings it up. The the problem with this is it actually increases the pressure.

Jessa:

You know, it doesn't change the fact that there's discrepancy. Both people are aware that the calendar the weeks are going by or whatever. It just puts all of it on the lower desire person. So, you know, they're trying to they're trying to, like, reduce the pressure. They are, but it actually increases the pressure eventually. So

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean and it's and some people find it really I mean, it's my, I guess, my experience is a bit skewed because I work mostly with women, but a lot of them say to me they find it really difficult to initiate. There's often underlying shame or shyness or just a lack of confidence or, you know, knowing what to do in that situation. And then to add to that, the motivation to initiate is not there because they have reactive desire. So they're not even feeling horny or turned on or Right. Like, they need to have sex.

Freya Graf:

So what like, where is this drive to, like, initiate coming from? It's just not even there. They can go ages without thinking about it. And then, yeah, they do feel like, I've heard I've heard that as well where they've kind of got this agreement where it's on them to initiate so that it doesn't feel like they're being pestered for sex and they're they're being pressured. But then it it's kind of got this, yeah, this this, like, underlying pressure in a different way. So Exactly. And in my experience, it's also, usually, the partner with the lower libido who feels as though it's, like, their fault and there's something wrong with them, and they're the ones that need to change and match the higher libido partner because, like, this, you know, this narrative that having a higher libido, having more sex is better or more healthy or Right. Whatever. And, you know, they feel like they're letting their partners down by not being more sexually available.

Freya Graf:

So what do you kind of usually suggest when there's, you know, this kind of gap and they've done they've both kinda done things to sort of make it a bit worse and get further and further away from one

Jessa:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Like, are you working with both partners and getting them both to do things to come back to meeting in the middle? Are you usually working with the lower libido partner? Yeah. Talk me through that.

Jessa:

In in my work, I'm working all with couples, so So I'm working with both people because it is not one person's problem. It is not the lower desired person who is broken or it's their fault or their thing to solve.

Freya Graf:

Hey, baby babes. Sorry to interrupt. I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. There you'll find extra bits and bobs like freebies, behind the scenes, or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the podcast. They'll also be, hopefully, inspiring, thought provoking conversations and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a really supportive, educational and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me and and a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to the links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge group in Facebook, and I'll see you in there.

Freya Graf:

And now back to the episode.

Jessa:

And I can't I mean, you are right. Most of the time, they come in feeling that way, and often their partner feels that way too. So that's something I have to correct. There is no amount of desire that is right or normal or healthy. It's not somebody has too much or too little. We have to learn how it works. It's you know, I'm always teaching people about reactive desire and how this works because most of them haven't understood this. They have expected to feel, you know, just sort of spontaneous sex drive, and what's wrong that this is, gone? So I have to teach about reactive desire.

Jessa:

I also have to teach, and this you you something in your intro question, suggested this too. Most couples approach sex like it is all or nothing. It's yes or no. We're either having sex or we're not having sex. Mhmm. But react reactive desire needs a lot of maybe because a person is not aroused yet, and they cannot know ahead of time if they're gonna end up there. So it's like this idea that we can just mess around. We can be physical in whatever way.

Jessa:

I can have input into what I might want or whatever, and let's see what happens. And re reactive desire is gonna show up somewhere between 5% of the time and 95% of the time, but not 100. So it has to be okay if it doesn't go to sex. And this is something both people kind of have to wrap their mind around. You know, the lower desire person is usually really ready. Yeah. That would would that be okay, though? And they're so certain their higher desire partner is gonna be like, no. You know? Which which may or may not be the case, but that the higher desired person has to understand that they can't know ahead of time, and so it can't be a commitment to have sex.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Absolutely. It's so sad when when couples aren't even engaging in any kind of, like, physical affection or or intimacy or connection because of this, like, oh, but, like, I don't want it to lead somewhere, and and I can't enjoy it and be present in the make out session because my brain's already, like, getting concerned about what's about to it's gonna escalate. You know? It's gonna have to escalate because that's what always happens. Like, it's just so sad. Like, we need to be exploring, yeah, ways that we can have, like, daily affection and little moments of connection and intimacy where there's zero pressure of it turning into anything else, and we can just get back to, like, remembering what that feels like to enjoy. Because that leads me to my next question. Like, what are some other things we can do to nourish and nurture that, like, 0 to 50, that sort of, I guess some people talk about how foreplay starts from the moment you finish having sex, and it's just this 247 thing.

Freya Graf:

What are some things that you coach couples to start, you know, implementing to assist with the reactive desire partner?

Jessa:

Well, I mean, I so first, I you make a good point, which is you're gonna get an awful lot of no if sex is all yes or no, because a reactive desire person is not gonna say yes unless they're sure they can do the whole thing. And since they're not often very sure, they're not in the mood, they're not aroused, right, that's going to lead to a lot of no. So maybe, it really helps. Like, I wasn't thinking about sex, let's start let's see what happens. So I I the way I talk about it is sex is like we're going to the playground. You know, it's the outing that counts. It's not about what we do when we get there. It's not about we have to go down the slide.

Jessa:

Let's just go and let's just see what we feel like doing and get inspired when we're there and see what we feel like doing next and stay as long as we want to stay. And so, I'm always coaching couples to, like, actually have some of these experiences. I'm gonna use kind of a structured exercise and things like that to just show up and focus on each of your pleasure. Think about what you would actually like, sexual or not. Ask for that. Give that to each other. Try to get away from any goal orientation or future tripping about this at all, you know, and just sort of see what happens. And if they can really embrace that, that this is not a commitment to have sex, this is just like, can we be present with each other regularly, the pressure can fall away, right? And then some percentage of the time, look at that, surprise.

Jessa:

Now I've got it turned on. Now I'd like to I'd like to have sex. So, you know, you end up with desire that you wouldn't have had if you didn't start. I mean, one thing I'm just careful to say to clients all the time, I'm never trying to get people to have sex. I'm trying to help you want as much sex as you could want. It's none of it's gonna work unless you actually want it.

Freya Graf:

Totally. And I'm assuming this is something you come across and have to approach kinda delicately, but I think because I work with, a lot of hetro women in hetro relationships. And, basically, in that dynamic, statistically, the woman is a lot less likely to orgasm and enjoy herself as much as the man. That's just like stats. And, you know, it's it often appears like she's maybe got a lower libido, but, actually, she's just not wanting sex as much because it's not as worth it for her to have, and it does feel as though it's for the man. Mhmm. And so, I was thinking, like, if sex was equally rewarding and enjoyable and there wasn't this orgasm gap, then maybe both, like, men and women, it would become more obvious that because, I mean, like, libido levels are actually, on average, the same across the board for males and females. I think it's assumed that, like, women have a lower libido, and that's been kinda marketed to us that, you know, we're less sexual or something.

Freya Graf:

But, yeah, I think there's been studies that show that on average, we have very similar levels of libido. But I think it's just that, like, our motivation to have sex in these relationships where we're with men who, yeah, I guess aren't as invested in our pleasure or potentially just don't know how to fuck a woman in a way that feels good for her body. Like, what do you do in that? Like, do you coach her how to be better at sex?

Jessa:

Well, I mean, I've got several comments that so first of all, in my own, therapy practice, so I'm working with couples or in my online course, whatever, I don't maybe it's 50%. The men are the lower desire person. And then they feel, like, doubly broken because society, you know, in in the in the ethos, right, men are supposed to always want sex and always be ready, so both people are feeling worse about that. So, anyway, it's not really gendered. As far as the orgasm gap, I mean, I want everyone to be able to have an orgasm if they want, but I also don't want orgasm to be the measure of the success of this. It's so there are definitely women that can have orgasm with their partner, and it doesn't make them that much more motivated for sex because the whole encounter is not really that fulfilling. Like, it's not it's we can't equate fulfillment just with orgasm. So, while it's nice to be able to have 1, and I want people to be able to have 1, that also doesn't quite solve the problem.

Jessa:

We need to figure out what makes this encounter fulfilling for both people, whatever that is. Right? Is that orgasm? Is that sexual pleasure? Is that just focused attention? Is that cuddling? Whatever it is, the encounter needs to be really fulfilling for both in order to want it and in order to be motivated to have it. Right? So sometimes it's about orgasm. Oh, and the other thing I just wanted to say that, you know, a sex life you're like you're describing has been co created by both people. It's not just the men who don't know or don't care or something. Lots of my clients really care about their partner's pleasure, but the partner doesn't take that space or doesn't know what they want, or the 2 of them don't know how to talk about this openly, or, you know, or they've gone along for years together in a way where sex has been for 1 person. And again, it's not it's not that often in my experience that this, let's say it's a man in a hetero relationship, doesn't care about their partner, is just happy to have it be about them. Most of them really want their partner to want it, want their partner to enjoy it, but there's been some barrier to that.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I think, like, from my from the with the people that I work with, one one common thing is, like, a lack of emotional tenderness and and real intimacy and vulnerability. So, yeah, I mean, orgasm is obviously great and a bonus, but a lot of the women I work with not only don't often orgasm with a partner, but they don't because of a lack of this kind of emotional tenderness and this, I guess, I guess being on the same page and just being both, like, in that really, like, open, vulnerable, intimate space of, like, we're both, you know, invested in one another's pleasure. We're both beginners. We've we're kinda just trying to figure it out as we go, like and and there just becomes this unspoken thing, and the gap between them gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, they're both kind of following this particular narrative when they fall into these roles and it's really hard to get out of those roles again because so many people struggle to even talk about sex, you know?

Jessa:

Well, and another thing is so many people approach this as if your partner should know what to do. And sometimes that's gendered, like the men should just know, the men should lead, the men are you know, But this idea that our partner should either read our mind or should be able to attune to us so much that they should know what we want, so we're we don't have to figure this out or ask for it. They should just know. And I I would say that's wrong. I think of it is we're each responsible for our own pleasure, and we have to equip our partner with the information they need to be pleasing to us. But that's not how a lot of people approach it. They're just hoping their partner figures it out or knows what to do or whatever. Saves them from having to speak up.

Jessa:

You know?

Freya Graf:

Totally. I know. Not enough responsibility is being taken for our own pleasure. I think it's very much there's this, like, we're gonna outsource it and somebody else is gonna give us pleasure or provide us an orgasm. And it's just yeah. I mean, I

Jessa:

Right.

Freya Graf:

Fully agree with you. You teach about that a lot, sort of sexual sovereignty and and taking responsibility for your own body and your own pleasure and learning what you like and giving guidance Right. And feedback based on that. And if you don't know, then figuring it out and doing some exploration, like, a big part of what I work with women to help them discover because they're not taught about that, often being shame and conditioning, preventing them from truly exploring that and becoming kind of masters over their own body and pleasure. And then they rock up in the bedroom, and they don't you know, even if they're with the most loving, gorgeous, you know, accommodating partner, which is really common that men really wanna give pleasure to their partner. They do. They do. They don't know what to do, and you don't know what to ask them to do.

Freya Graf:

So it's just blind leading the blind. Right. So something that I'm curious about is we've sort of touched on, like, one partner, you know, initiating most of the time and the other not. What do you recommend couples? Do you kinda go, hey. Like, let's share the load around or let's make it so that we're not initiating sex at all, but we're just kind of doing little bids of affection. Like, how do you, guide people when there's just one person always initiating?

Jessa:

Yeah. I never want it to be just one person. So, I don't want that to all be on the higher desired person to be fully responsible for it. But I also don't want that thing we talked about before where they abdicate and put it all on the lower desired person. It needs to be shared. Not 5050 maybe, but it should be shared. And I I generally, if we're talking about somebody with more reactive desire, what I want them to initiate is is opportunities for sex, trips to the playground, not sex specifically. Right? Don't be so outcome oriented.

Jessa:

So, like, people you know, one of the pieces of advice I it's like, don't schedule sex, schedule opportunities for sex to be sexual. Yeah. Right? Because because, again, it's maybe. It's not like we can't commit, like, next Friday at 8, I'm gonna want this thing. Right? So but I can say, let's set aside sometime next Friday at 8 to be physical and start and see what happens. Yeah. For the for a lower desire slash reactive desire person, like you're saying, they don't have the intrinsic motivation for sex specifically. They're not turned on.

Jessa:

They're not horny. They're not thinking about sex, but they can still initiate from intention, you know, because they are recognizing that sex is important in their relationship, it's important to their partner, that they're glad when they have it, they're gonna have to think about it, like, on purpose, which is not a bad thing, you know? So they can put alarms on their phone or post it notes in their closet or something to bring it to mind and make a point of initiating this trip to the playground with your partner. They're still gonna be starting at 0. Or the other thing they can do sometimes is get the engine going first by themselves and then go find your partner so that it doesn't have to always be starting at 0. Right? That's a nice thing if if you read romance novels or masturbate or fantasize or whatever. If there's some way to, like, get that going on your own and then go find your partner, that's probably going to be appreciated also.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yep. Totally a great idea. Yeah. It's always been you know, I I I don't sort of intrinsically feel motivated to have sex or get horny often, but sex is important to me, and I know that I enjoy it when I have it. And so even though I might forget to initiate, I'll, like, kinda make an effort. And, obviously, like, sex is my whole jam. So I do think about it a lot just for my work.

Freya Graf:

Right. And I go, in a while, probably should, you know, do that. And and I just think about, like, the fact that, but I mean, I'm very affectionate and connection intimacy based the rest of the time. So, like, the sex isn't the be all and end all. It's just like a bonus when it happens. But in terms of, what motivates me to initiate intimacy is, like, it it you know, I'm thinking not so much about the actual sex or the orgasm, but, like, it's a bid for connection. It's a way to feel closer to my partner. It's oxytocin on tap.

Freya Graf:

It's like touch, which is a love language for me and very nourishing. It feels like, you know, intimacy in the form of, like, pleasurable touch, massage, cuddling, like, eye contact and, like, a nice, like, deep conversation and just being very present with a partner, that is meeting a need for me that is like a nutrient, you know, like food or water. Yeah. So okay. Well, before I launch into another line of questioning, I'd love to get the segment get pregnant and die out of the way because I know we don't have a lot of time. Do you have an anecdote about your sex education for us?

Jessa:

Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and Don't have sex in a beneficiary position. Don't have don't have sex standing up. Just don't do it. Promise? I mean, I I'm a little fortunate because my mom worked for an organization that was, I mean, sort of similar to Planned Parenthood, but it was like a private, you know, one location kind of thing. And she did sex education for them as well as counseling of people that would come in there. So she would bring home the basket with, like, the books and the toys and the, you know, I don't know, the vulva or whatever, and and sort of leave it there and make it available. So I came from a very sex positive household where it was an open conversation and stuff. Wow.

Jessa:

So that was helpful. But, yeah, certainly in school, you know, it's like, yeah, don't die, don't get pregnant, don't get a STI. That was that was all it was. At least we had sex ed. Right? So but Yeah. It was not pleasure focused. So

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Oh, that's amazing that you had a mom. Oh my god. I can't even imagine. No wonder you've wound up in this line of work. That's fantastic. It's it's rare.

Jessa:

It's funny. In this in the in the sex therapist world, people come from either, it seems to me, very sex positive households like I did or really sex negative shamed, you know, whatever, or overcoming something really negative. And it's like those 2 extremes, it seems like.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Wow. Alright. So what are some of the I mean, this is a huge question, and, obviously, it's different for, you know, every couple. But I imagine there would be some common themes and some kind of things that you usually tackle first. But when a couple comes and works with you or if someone was, you know, doing that annoying thing at a dinner party where they hear about what you do and they wanna pick your brains and just get you to therapies them, Imagine that that is happening right now. What what what do we do about it as a first port of call when there's a really big discrepancy in desire? It's creating tension and a lack of connection and satisfaction in the relationship. It's become this really, yeah, delicate thing that both of us feel like shit about and don't know how to even begin approaching or dealing with.

Freya Graf:

Like, what are some quite widely applicable go to tips or strategies for, yeah, couples who wanna start working on this and trying to heal that that chasm?

Jessa:

I don't know if I could get all this out in a dinner party, but basically a lot of what we've been talking about in terms of the paradigm shift, that this is that reactive desire is a real thing, part of the way the 2 of you have been dealing with this have probably made it worse in terms of taking it personally, feeling broken, stuff like that. Right? They're going to recognize the kind of pressure that they've been under. They're going to recognize what I call the sexual avoidance cycle, that once experiences don't quite live up to your expectations, you start to have bad feelings about that. Of course, you start to avoid that. Right? And that increases the pressure. So this invitation into, hey, let's just take the pressure off. Let's just go to the playground. Let's just see what happens.

Jessa:

Let's stop making it mean what we have made it mean and just go connect again, you know, whatever that would be, in small regular ways. Often, I mean, that's the first step, Right? Can we just again, I always use the phrase, can we just go to the playground and stop making it mean this big thing and not expect sex specifically? And most people, when I when I talk about this kind of stuff, they they do recognize all the ways that this has gotten so loaded and pressured, And so mostly are really, really willing to embrace this. You know, letting it be different, letting it stop being so goal oriented, stop making it, you know, this big deal if they're invited into this sort of new way of thinking about it.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Cool. I think, taking the phrase or the concept of blue balls out of the equation would be amazing as well. It's it's like so Here's

Jessa:

Here's the thing, you know, I mean, somebody can have an orgasm if they want an orgasm somehow, but it doesn't mean it's your partner's job to get you off just because you're horny, right? Like, we've got to shift that, like, so that person can masturbate or that they can do something different together, but it's not all on your partner to do something just because you're aroused. So, yeah, that is part of the part of the conversation too.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Like, do you have to because, I mean, it seems so outdated and like, oh, who's but it is still definitely a thing. Like, I hear from clients a lot. They do feel as though, yeah, if they engage in any kind of, like, sensual touch or intimacy, not only are they kind of, like, I guess, already anticipating where that's going to lead or worried about escalation, but they are already feeling guilty because if they start something that they, quote, unquote, can't finish, their partner kinda makes them feel a bit guilty or like, well, why did you get me all revved up if you're not gonna, you know, finish the job or something?

Jessa:

I mean, that partner needs a new freaking attitude because that sort of that sort of entitlement is unworkable. And, again, when I'm working with couples, I I almost never see that. You know, mostly these higher desire partners want their partner to want to be intimate with them, and they want their partner to have pleasure. I mean, they might struggle with, yeah, I get around I mean, maybe they well, I don't know. Most of them, I suppose, masturbate, but some of them aren't used to doing anything but. Like, we either have sex or we don't. It can be this adjustment. But if somebody's gonna put that on you, that you got me aroused, you can't leave me like this, I mean, that's manipulative and coercive, and you can't have healthy sex in that kind of container.

Jessa:

Right. But again, most high desire partners recognize that this is not helping their partner want it. It's feeding the avoidance that they maybe have been entitled in a way that they shouldn't, and they, you know, they can take a little more responsibility for their orgasm in that situation. I mean, again, 99% of the time, I find people willing to to shift that if that's ever been there. But, again, I'm seeing couples that are in pretty committed relationships, so maybe it's a little bit of a different subset if you're talking to people who are just dating. But, if that person wouldn't adjust that attitude, I would you know, if they're dating, I wouldn't stay long. That's not workable.

Freya Graf:

Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and 5 star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster, and it's really easy to just quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving 5 stars for the show on Spotify or, even better, writing a written review and leaving 5 stars over on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're a real overachiever,

Jessa:

you can

Freya Graf:

do them both. That would be mad. If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use G rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates. Lame. Anyway, I would personally recommend doing that right now while you remember just to get on top of it and let me know you're with me on this journey. Thanks, gang. Enjoy the rest of the epi. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Totally agree. And I suppose, yeah, the couples that are coming to work with you are committed and they're invested in working on this or they wouldn't be hiring you. So, yeah, perhaps you don't have to deal with as many of those kinda dropkicks, as I have to hear about through the clients that I work with. And so often, I just really wish I could scream dump him, but, like, I can't do that. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, yeah, we're talking about the the higher libido partner often feeling rejected or taking it personally and, yeah, even just even, you know, from from them initiating and, getting a no or from the other partner just not initiating.

Freya Graf:

It makes them feel like they're not desired. And, obviously, everyone wants to feel desired. They wanna feel like you're, you know, you're wanting to engage with them like this. So what advice do you give couples on how to say no and receive no in a healthy way? Because I think a lot of us really struggle to yeah. With, I guess, just boundaries and communication, that can be done in, like, a really kind, gentle way that doesn't feel like a personal rejection and then also how to receive no in a way where you don't take it personally and see it as rejection, but you see it for what it actually is.

Jessa:

Right.

Freya Graf:

Like, where where do you kind of do you work with people on that?

Jessa:

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I do. So, first of all, remember there's maybe, and that's just really, really important. So, a couple will have come in and it's been always yes or no. And the idea of, well, maybe, I wasn't thinking about sex, let's see what happens, helps a lot. You don't need no very often. I mean, you might need to know eventually. You go to the playground and now I'm done.

Jessa:

It's just not happening for me, for sure. But the thing I really I mean, I'm not exaggerating this. People should celebrate when somebody says no. Thank you for taking care of yourself. Because if we are talking about wanting you to actually want to engage with me, you can't say yes if you can't say no. And part of the the couples will have come in where somebody's having sex as a chore, an obligation, or for their partner's needs for sometimes for decades, years, whatever. And that's that's not sustainable. You know, they've gone along with it for too long, and they need to say no.

Jessa:

And usually, both people can recognize that. So if somebody says no, wow, they're starting to actually think about what they want and let you know that. Hallelujah. Right? So and, you know, that's a real shift for for people, but it's really, really important. And you combine that with just lots lots more maybe, you know, instead of no. Like, let's start and see what happens with this whole concept of reactive desire, and all of a sudden it's not so weighty. You know, it doesn't happen 9 times out of 10 or whatever. Totally.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Because if, you know, I think so many people would be saying no more of the time because they didn't realize maybe well, because maybe hasn't been an option in their dynamic. Exactly. Whereas if maybe is an option, it's like, oh, wow. Like, I I'm open to it, or I'm open to being open to it escalating, but Right. Not feeling, you know, as though I have to as though a kiss is a contract to quote Right.

Jessa:

Was it Flight of the

Freya Graf:

Concorde song or something?

Jessa:

Oh, I don't even know. Feeling.

Freya Graf:

Oh, it's great. It's like a kiss is not a contract. Just because I kiss you doesn't mean we're gonna go the whole way.

Jessa:

Right. Right.

Freya Graf:

And I think that, yeah, if you do kinda take that obligation or expectation off the table and allow for the room for the maybes and the room for the possibility that it will, you know, eventuate into something more, but that there's not gonna be like, oh, but you've given me blue balls or like, oh, but, you know, my, you know, my pleasure is your responsibility to provide to me. So what the fuck? If you just get rid of all of that, and we're on the same page about, like, we're engaging for the reasons of connection and intimacy and pleasure, not an end goal of orgasm or some sort of release or gratification. Then, you know, anything else is anything is a bonus, and you're just, like Exactly. Exploring together.

Jessa:

Anything you do is got value. Yeah. Right?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I loved what you said about, like, I really and it's the case with everything, not just sex. But if you aren't able to say no I feel deeply uncomfortable when I'm with someone who's so people pleasing and so lax with their boundaries and so unable to say no that I can't trust their yes. Because if I know that they struggle to say no and that they've got this tendency to kind of put other people before them and they feel uncomfortable with conflict or they feel uncomfortable to a really common one is they don't like letting people down or disappointing people. That makes me feel unsafe and can't enjoy when they're saying yes because I'm like, but is it a real yes or is it just an inability to say no?

Jessa:

Exactly. And especially when you add that for a couple who can see that over these years, somebody's inability to say no or going along with it or treat you know, just doing it for their partner, The damage that that's caused and the place that it's brought them, most people really embrace this again. Like, yes. Please say no when you don't want to so that I know you mean it when you do.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Amazing. Beautiful. Alright. Well, do you have a TMI story for us? Because it is time for the segment TMI. We love it.

Jessa:

I do. It's you know, it's it's, I mean, you mentioned pretending to be asleep, and that is a moment I had. So, I'm not sure where to start. Like, after the birth of my first child, I tore, had 3rd degree tears in that birth, and sex hurt after that, for years until my next baby. And I felt, I don't even know how to put this in words, I felt like fundamentally broken or damaged. Like, I'd always enjoyed sex. I was a super, you know, sex positive person. I really enjoyed sex.

Jessa:

I had fun with it, And all of a sudden it hurt. And it was I just felt like something had been destroyed. I don't have the words for it, you know? And then we add on a lot of the things we're talking about in the way we dealt with sex and all kinds of things were going on my relationship. But I did get to the point where I was pretending to be asleep when my husband would come in. And it wasn't just about the pain. It was about the avoidance of this whole thing and how heavy and stuck and broken and ashamed and guilty that I felt. And that was a big part of me ending up where I am now. I mean, I did actually get divorced.

Jessa:

I mean, it was complicated, but the sexual issues did not help. But that's part of where I went back to school to get my master's, and I'm gonna work couples, and then get the training for sex therapy was out of that very dark place. That. Yeah. Yep.

Freya Graf:

Oh, wow. Thanks for sharing. I feel like that story will be incredibly relatable to an incredible amount of people, actually. Because So, yeah, I work with moms as well, and that's that's a big one. The and, yeah, I I should have asked about that as well because sometimes it's, yeah, it's it's nothing to do with libido. There's just there's these natural fluctuations, and then there's these massive life events and, like, changes in your body that happen, that mean as if you're going to wanna be initiating sex or having sex and and, yeah. I know, like, moms after birth often just feel so like, I hear words like, I guess, like yeah. They feel like it's they're they're they're, like, not fulfilling their duty as a wife or a partner or they're failing their partner or letting down their partner by not being able to provide this thing.

Freya Graf:

And, you know, meanwhile, they've they've got this completely different relationship with their body, and they've got a newborn. And, I mean, it's just wild. And

Jessa:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. That breaks my heart that so many people have experienced that similar thing to what you just described of just feeling broken. And and I guess that there'd be so much fear because you're like, is it ever gonna go back to how it was? Am I ever gonna heal? Is sex ever gonna not be painful? Like, how do we you know? So yeah. And and, I mean, great that in this case, it was this amazing catalyst for you to go and study this and now help so many people. I mean, classic, like, turn your mess into your message,

Jessa:

you know? Yeah. But at a really high cost. I mean, it came out of divorce. So it's like, you know, yes, it became a message, but, yeah, really high cost. And I didn't know back then there was anything you could do about any of this. So

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Such a common narrative though, like people going through a really horrible or traumatic or challenging thing and then not knowing where to go for help and then being like, okay. Well, now I'm going to create

Jessa:

a new path. Find that. Exactly. Figure out that path. So nobody hopefully, nobody else has to travel that road. So

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Jessa:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Alright, my dear. Well, I know we've got a wrap up. So I'm just wondering if you have anything you would like to leave the listeners with, maybe any, words of hope or advice or maybe some ideas or suggestions that they can kind of take and run with just to get them started. Yeah.

Jessa:

Well, I mean, I I think the hope I wanna give people is assuming they're in a good relationship and you're not with one of these guys that thinks you owe them because they have blue balls. I really believe that any 2 people can create a sex life that works for both of them and I really do believe that you can't fail at sex. So if you are willing to open the way you've thought about it, challenge your expectations, get more flexible and creative, you know, change your idea of what counts, sort of embrace all of this. There's a really wonderful way to share a sex life with your partner somehow. Even, you know, even with pain or with disease or sexual dysfunction or whatever might be going on, there's a way to put that together with the with the pieces that are working, air quotes here, into a way that could be really fulfilling. So don't feel broken. Don't feel hopeless. You know? Keep seeking out the resources until you until you get there.

Freya Graf:

That was actually a that was something I thought of, like, as I was drifting off to sleep last night that I hadn't written down on my little list of of questions. But, yeah, I was wanting to ask, like, is it possible if some you know, regardless of, like, how different people's levels of desires are, like and maybe sexual preferences and different levels of compatibility. Like, is it always possible to kind of find a way to work with that? Or sometimes, is it just too far gone or there's just too like, can there be people who just have a very, very high libido that are very hypersexual people and then other people that are not, and then there just can't be a way to make it work? Like, what

Jessa:

I mean, I I suppose with desire discrepancy, if it was a really extreme gap and one person just didn't enjoy physical touch and could not find any desire, I mean, maybe that's incompatible. I mean, maybe they could do other things together or that person's, okay, masturbating or fantasizing, whatever. I'm not sure. But the other thing, I guess, that can be problematic and can be hard to reconcile is if they really don't have any overlap in their erotic interests. Yeah. You know, because there's what turns us on. And if there's no overlap in that, that's tricky. Right? So if somebody's super kinky, and that's really all they respond to, and that is just a turn off to their partner, like, it's hard to put that together in a way that could work for both.

Jessa:

Now I don't see that that often because I feel like people don't necessarily get together unless they have some overlap.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Jessa:

And they don't need complete overlap. Right? They just need some. But Yep.

Freya Graf:

Yep. Yep. Yeah. They probably wouldn't wind up being together for years and then coming into your office if that if that were the case. You kinda discover that that level of incompatibility quite early on, and then there wouldn't be the draw to be together potentially. Right. Unless you, I don't know, were religious and didn't believe in sex before marriage and had no sexual experience, and then you got together and you're married, and all of a sudden you've discovered that, uh-oh, we are so

Jessa:

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Or that person's only just coming to even be able to consider their own kinkiness or what yeah. Right. Sometimes this stuff could surprise you later.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Jessa:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. But generally generally, like, even even what I'm imagining is, like, even couples who have had difficulties with this for years years, and they feel so broken, and they feel so hopeless and and have no idea what to do or where to go. There's still hope, and it's actually quite sort of simple once you start. And and usually, it's just that they need a neutral third party to come in and be like, cool. You guys are okay. You've actually got a really healthy relationship in many ways. Here are some tools for you and some strategies. Let's do it.

Freya Graf:

Like, you know, often it feels like this absolutely insurmountable obstacle within the couple, but then when you go and seek some professional support, it's like, oh, actually, like, no. This is totally workable.

Jessa:

Yeah. Well and that's what's become my intimacy with these method, really, is sort of this straining and accessing desire, removing the pressure, and then what do you do together to co create this enjoyment? And yes, there are tools, there are strategies, there is hope. As long as you know, it's basically you love each other, you respect each other, there's goodwill.

Freya Graf:

It's worth it.

Freya Graf:

Hey. Me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it 5 stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I wanna mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote, tea, togs. Yep. You heard that right. I even have labia lounge bathers or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So, if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my buy me a coffee donation page, which is actually called buy me a soy chai latte because I'll be the first to admit, I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that. And, yes, that is my coffee order.

Freya Graf:

You can do a one stop donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as 3 fat ones a month. And I also offer 1 on 1 coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way.

Freya Graf:

So every bit helps because it ain't cheap to

Freya Graf:

put out a sweet podcast, into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be I'm dyingly grateful if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself. Salty.

Freya Graf:

And, I'll pop the links in the show notes. Thank you. Later. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Well, I'm gonna put the links to intimacy with ease method and all of your work in the show notes. You know, you've also got a book.

Freya Graf:

So if people wanna delve a bit deeper, this is obviously a big topic, definitely get get into some of those resources that I'll link, and, yeah, follow Jess's work. Thank you so much though for this chat, my dear.

Jessa:

Yeah. Thank you for having me. It was delightful.

Freya Graf:

And that's it, darling hearts. Thanks for stopping by the labia lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it, just waiting for you to sink back in for some more double-L action next time. If you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this snatch because that's a downright act of sex positive feminist activism, and you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatize with this here podcast. I'm also always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered, questions or guest suggestions, so feel free to get in touch via my website or over on Insta. You can also send me in TMI stories to be shared anonymously on the pod. My handle is Freya Graf underscore the labia lounge. If my account hasn't been deleted for being too sex positive, which, you know, is always a possibility with censorship.

Freya Graf:

But just in case the chronic censorship finally does obliterate my social channels, I'd highly recommend going and joining my mailing list and snagging yourself some fun freebies for the trouble at www.freyagraf.com/freebies. Anyway, later labial legends. See you next

Jessa:

time.