Freya Graf:

This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets.

Freya Graf:

Welcome. Welcome, my lovely lumps, or should I say lovely labs? I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge. We're gonna yarn about all things sexuality, womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health, and everything in between. Your legs. Oh. Can't help myself. Anyway, we're gonna have vag-loads of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up.

Freya Graf:

You're about to receive the sex ed that you never had and have a bloody good laugh while you're at it. Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in Naam, and I pay respect to their elders past, present and emerging. Now, if you're all ready, let's flap and do this. Oh my god. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. It's my podcast. I'm leaving it in.

Freya Graf:

Hey, labial legends. So stoked to have you back for another interview on the labial lounge because this week, I have an incredibly intelligent, articulate, and fascinating guest to present to you, Ruby Warrington. I'm a little bit starstruck, actually. I've been reading your book. I've heard you on podcast. So I'm really thrilled to be chatting with you today, Ruby. Welcome.

Ruby Warrington:

Thanks, Freya. It's great to be here.

Freya Graf:

So to give everyone a rundown on this darling guest of mine, Ruby Warrington is a British born author, editor, and publishing consultant recognized as having the unique ability to identify issues that are destined to become part of the cultural narrative. She's perhaps best known as the creator of the term sober curious. Her 2008 book and million download podcast of the same title having helped to spearhead a global movement to reevaluate our relationship with alcohol. Oh my god. I might have to do another episode on that. Ruby's other works include Material Girl, Mystical World, The Sober Curious Reset, and Women Without Kids, the revolutionary rise of the unsung sisterhood. And her work has been featured by countless media outlets globally, including the New York Times, The Guardian, and Good Morning America. She lives in Brooklyn, and the focus of this conversation today is gonna be all about the decision so many women are now facing as to whether or not to have kids.

Freya Graf:

Since it's becoming increasingly common to opt out of this once default life path, and there are so many more women questioning this default expectation of them in ways that we never had the luxury of questioning before nor as much of a need to question before I would argue. So, yeah, I mean, I'm sure I'll share a little bit about where I sit with all of this as a 33 year old woman without children yet, but I'd love to give the listeners some context as to what sparked you to write a book called Women Without Kids, Ruby.

Ruby Warrington:

Well, thanks for that lovely intro. Yeah. You put it really well, I think. And I, obviously, I write about this in the book. The decision about whether or not to become a mother is a relatively new phenomenon among the mainstream. Right? Like, for the majority of women, there wasn't necessarily the option to go a different path, to choose whether or not you wanted to have children, to choose how many children you wanted to have. There has always been you know, there have always been methods of birth control that people have had access to. Women have, to an extent, always had some capacity to kind of work with their cycle, to work with various herbs, etcetera, to kind of, like, control their fertility, But reliable and accessible birth control only really became available in the middle of the last century.

Freya Graf:

So it's only really I'm

Freya Graf:

not being burned for being a witch.

Ruby Warrington:

Right. Exactly. And then adding into that, of course, safe and legal abortion as a backstop. Like, this is a this is a relatively new development in terms of the history of womankind, and so this is a new phenomenon. Now I'm somebody who knew from a very young age that motherhood wasn't necessarily for me. I'll put it like that for now. It obviously wasn't that cut and dried when I was 5 years old, but let's just say as a kid, I never played with toy baby dolls. I never fantasized about being a mother.

Freya Graf:

I never pictured that for myself. And it was only as I kind of reached my mid twenties, I suppose, that I began to be aware of how truly, well, I'd say revolutionary now, but how truly unusual that stance seemed to be. It was still very much, you know, when I was in my twenties, still very much the default was that you would your ultimate goals as a woman were to find a husband, get married, and have children. Like, whatever else you might want to do with your life, that was those were the kind of, like, big overarching life choices that would validate you as a woman. And so not necessarily wanting to have children immediately placed me very much in the ALTS group. And it was something, therefore, that I questioned very, very deeply throughout my twenties and my thirties. Even though throughout that questioning period, there was always this very strong inner knowing that that wasn't the right path for me. But so many times, I almost talked myself into it, almost talked myself into wanting to be a mother.

Freya Graf:

And then kind of concurrent to that was deep shame, deep self doubt around whether the fact that I didn't want to be a mother meant that there was something really fundamentally wrong with me, you know, maybe even on a biological level. Yeah. And it was only really I mean, it one of the ways that it ties to my work with Sober Curious is that it was only really removing alcohol from my life and just getting so much more clarity about who I am as a human being, what I really want for myself, what lights me up, what doesn't, that I was able to connect more deeply to that inner knowing I'd had around not wanting to be a mother. And that was kind of like, you know, I was in my early forties by that point. And, honestly, starting to look ahead to menopause and what that might bring for me. And I realized that I was actually quite excited about the transition of menopause, which again is a very outsiderous position. Most people are taught to dread it. Right? But I was sort of like, wow.

Freya Graf:

This is gonna be really interesting. And nowhere in my contemplation of the transition of menopause did I feel any sort of panic in my body around having missed out on this thing, having not done this very important thing I was supposed to do, become a mother? And within that, I realized, wow, all of that doubt, all of that shame, all of that questioning was because of the external projections that

Freya Graf:

are

Ruby Warrington:

placed on women about what it means to be a mother and what it means not to be a mother. And within that, I thought, wow. There's a really juicy subject here to dive into because then, of course, I kind of zoomed out. And with my journalist's hat on, very quickly saw that, yes, this is the choice that more and more women are making. The birth rate, meaning the number of women children that women are having, individually is declining very steeply. All in every single country in the world, the birth rate is going down. And so this huge demographic shift that we're seeing is actually reflective of 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of deeply personal, often very conflicted decisions in this area. And I thought, well, can I produce a book that offers some guidance and validation, some food for thought, for people who are in that decision making process, for people who've maybe made the decision to have children and are still feeling conflicted around that for people who haven't been able to have children and are feeling all of the shame and the judgment that comes with that? So, yeah, it just felt like such a rich, juicy subject, and one that obviously I had a real strong personal connection to.

Freya Graf:

So, yeah, that's kind of why women without kids. And one thing I really wanted to do is to was to try to speak to women who can't have kids and women who don't want to have kids. And everyone on wherever they fall on that kind of what I call a motherhood spectrum because it's not always as simple or as black and white as can't have kids, don't want kids. It's often a very kind of messy, circuitous, like, up and down path. Yeah. And I wanted to acknowledge that as well.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Beautiful. Such a community service that you've done by writing a book like this because I'm sure, yes, so many people have felt that external, you know, cultural, societal pressure, and rising hysteria, the closer they get to that childbearing age. Well, not not the closer they get to childbearing age, the closer they get to leaving childbearing age. You know, I'm smack bang at that point where it does start to kind of get louder, you know, and it's not my panic that I'm feeling. It's other people's panic and and and kind of rising, like, urgency, but it's so easy to be gaslit into thinking it's your own, you know, desire or, like, urgency to have kids and, oh my gosh, what you know, the thing that I absolutely can't stand, but I used to be guilty of thinking this and maybe even saying this to 1 or 2 people is like, oh my god. But what if you regret not having kids? What if you miss the boat and then you regret it later? You know? And so it's so because that's so insidious and it's so common and so accepted to fucking chuck your 2¢ in and say something like that to somebody, you know, who you have no idea, like, what has gone into their decision making or whether, you know I mean, it's such a personal and nuanced decision and, arguably, the biggest of someone's life. Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

It's wild that we kinda feel like we have this license to make a comment on that or get them to question that, and to question their decision. So, yeah, rudely, I really I think it's so important and valuable that, you know, there are more and more resources like this and conversations like this, you know, to help that minority of women who don't have kids, can't have kids, don't wanna have kids, all the different reasons, you know, to to feel normal and feel validated. Because, yeah, like you said, it is it's pretty much the bail and end all of, like, womanhood and has been up marketed to us as that. And everything, you know, leading up to adulthood is around, like, when you, you know, womanhood and motherhood are, like, interchangeable terms, practically. Like so, yeah, I think it's great that this, this really massive and really personal decision is is starting to be something that we're reclaiming, and it's more normalized as well because I feel like there's so much judgment and shame that get heaped on women if they don't wanna become a mom. And, like, yeah, something that I was keen to to kind of highlight. I think I I think I might have I either read it in one of Read it in your book or heard it in the podcast, but it was something around, like, the the kinds of categories of people without kids, all the reasons why someone might not become a mother. Because I think what people assume and what I kind of assumed, was that if you don't have kids, it's because you can't because of infertility, or something.

Freya Graf:

But, actually, the the, like, most common reason for women to be without children is because of circumstances or, like, can you give us a bit of a rundown on some of the reasons and categories of, like, quote, unquote, childless women?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Sure. So there's I definite I'll I'll go into that in a sec, but there's something I just wanted to kind of, like, pick up on from what you were saying, which is well, first of all, yes, this is one area of life like drinking, actually, this is another crossover between my these two books, but, like, this is an area of life that other people feel very validated in having a lot of opinions about. And it's an an an incredibly, if not the most personal decision that a person can make. Like, am I going to birth make birth another human being? Like, am I going to use my body for this very, very specific, very personal intimate thing? And yet, yes, because we I think it just shines a light on how how high of an expectation there has been for women to become mothers

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

That people have feel like they have the right to kind of, like, say, to have all these judgments about it, to have all these opinions about it. Right? And that thing you said about, like, whether or not we will regret it, I mean, that really speaks to and I think it's very it's very natural to ask ourselves that question. Will I regret not doing this thing? Because it is. It's like, honestly, one of the only decisions that we cannot unmake. It is the biggest decision a person can make in their life. Right? And so to question whether or not we'll regret not making that decision is very natural and very normal, but it doesn't mean that we should make that, that we should do it. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. So there is there's actually there's there's you know, it's very interesting. I've heard far more people in my research on this subject talk about regretting having had kids than I have heard talk about regretting not having had kids. Right? I think it's actually you're actually, in a in a weird way, more likely to regret something that you do that doesn't turn out the way you were hoping than you are to regret something that you don't do from a self protective position. And then a lot of the time to get into the circumstances piece, a lot of the time when people are making a decision not to have children, it is out of self protection. It's around protecting something, their autonomy, perhaps, their financial stability, their relationship, maybe, their relationship to themself. They're protecting something that they feel may well be compromised by becoming a parent, and that is very, very valid reason not to have children. Right? If you're worried about maybe you're going to regret this in the future, I mean, really, truly think about what you will regret not doing or not having now if you make this decision.

Freya Graf:

You know? And think about other ways that you might be able to parent, other ways that you might be able to have children, be involved in children's lives that could sort of fulfill that for you. Now, obviously, having your own children is it brings with it huge life experiences that you can't necessarily replicate in other ways. And these are really important things to weigh. And I think the earlier we can start entering into that decision making process, the better. But the fact is because we've seen it as just this sort of, like, default, this thing that will happen, we don't quest we don't encourage people to really apply critical thinking and decision making to this area of life. I've met so many women who are in their early forties who were sort of wondering, well, why didn't that happen? I thought it would just happen. But perhaps if they'd have been thinking from their early twenties or even from their teens, even when from when sex ed first kind of, like, comes into the picture, is this something I want for myself? Perhaps they would have made a decision, yes. It really is, earlier when they had longer to play with in terms of their fertile window.

Freya Graf:

So I think what I'm really hoping we can do is stop sort of normalize the questioning, the decision making process around this as as something that people can begin to engage with very early in their lives as they're making those big decisions. Where do I wanna live? What kind of a career do I want to have? What kind of a partnership do I want to have? Really thinking about that stuff very early. Yeah. Right? So if you, like I said, if you reach the place of, like, this is something I really want, ideally, you'll reach it when you're 28, not when you're 38. That would be great. Right? So which is to say, I'm not telling anybody, hey. Don't have kids. I'm saying if you don't want to, that's okay.

Freya Graf:

Absolutely okay. And let's normalize asking the question. Do I want this for myself? Which gets into, I think, you know, talking about the childless by choice, childless by circumstance. So the the only kind of statistical information on this is pretty outdated. These days, it was from, like, 2014, 2015, and that those statistics show that of all the people who are without children, about 10% are childless due to infertility, meaning they tried to have children and couldn't. About 10% are, you know, what would traditionally or classically be called childless by choice. They always knew this was something that they didn't want. And I would I would pretty much put myself in that category, and then the other 80% are what's called childless by circumstance.

Freya Graf:

Possibly or probably would have had children under different circumstances, meaning had they met somebody they wanted to co parent with, had they reached a different point in their career by the end of their fertile window, Had their financial situation been different?

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Had they had more support available to them from family, extended family, etcetera? Now Had

Freya Graf:

we not destroyed the world and the climate? Like

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Right. Okay. And this is definitely something that is a really big factor for the younger cohorts of people without children. Right? What are the ethics of bringing a child into the world if I'm turning on the news and I'm seeing that by 2050, which is coming up, I mean, it's not that far off at this point, we're gonna be facing kind of, like, catastrophic climate events on a regular basis. Like, is it even fair to bring a child into the world if that is the prognosis on climate change? And I called that specific cohort childless by climate change, and I don't think these people are taken serious by demographers and economists who are, you know, really sounding the alarm on imminent population collapse if women or people. But they typically say women, but every child that comes into the world is a result of a a male and a female, on some level. You know, if if people continue to stop having children, then we'll witness what people are calling referring to as climate collapse, which is hugely scaremongering given that we currently have 8,000,000,000 people.

Freya Graf:

And in fact, Gen Alpha is set to be the biggest generation on record. There will be more Gen Alphas than we've ever seen, of any other generation. So as much as it's it's comp it's complicated because as much as the birth rate is going down because we've had such huge exponential population growth over the past 2 centuries, the population is still increasing pretty fast. Right? It's just the growth is slowing down. Where and and this goes in a slightly different direction, but I'll touch on it. You know, our economy is built on perpetual

Freya Graf:

growth. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

But we've had completely unsustainable growth the past 2 centuries. For example Yeah. Just 100 years ago, the population of the United States was less than a quarter of what it is now, just 100 years ago. If we continued growing at that rate, which is what the economy kind of, quote, unquote, needs

Freya Graf:

Needs. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

We would have a population of just, like, 1,000,000,000 in the US alone, and that's just it's it's really truly not sustainable. You don't have to be a climate specialist to know that we have a flight the planet has a finite land mass with finite resources. Right? So this slowdown is necessary. But there's a lot of scaremongering around it. Sorry, that went into a slightly different I went off on a bit of a tangent.

Freya Graf:

I love it. Oh, it's all relevant. It's all relevant.

Freya Graf:

To come back to this this thing about choices and circumstances, I kind of talk I I question in the book rather, where did choices end and circumstances begin? Because, actually, the circumstances of our birth, the family that we're born into, the culture that we're born into, the religious programming that we might kind of receive as a young person, all of these will inform our choices as a human being. Right? The choices that we make will then help to shape our circumstances going forwards. You know? So choices and circumstances are a real gray area. There's a lot of crossover between choices and circumstances. And so I think that there's there's a lot of crossover between childless by choice, childless by circumstance as well. Because you could also say that fertility is a set of circumstances that determine. And then back to the climate piece, I mean, there's more and more research that's coming out to show that toxins in the environment are driving a lot of infertility, are really, really, really impacting human fertility. So that's something else that kind of, like, factors into the whole conversation too.

Freya Graf:

I mean, as you're probably getting as you and your listener well, you know, you've read the book, but as your listeners are probably beginning to understand, this is an incredibly complex subject that touches pretty much every area of life. Yeah. Well, and that's Our individual lives, but also our lives in terms of the life of of humanity. You know? It really is, like, such a big subject.

Freya Graf:

Oh, absolutely. And that's why it was so refreshing and enlightening to kind of start thinking about this stuff prompted by, you know, certain questions that you posed in the book. Like, you actually are getting people to journal and reflect and, like, look at every single little aspect of their lifestyle, their personality, their upbringing, their family structure, their trauma history, blah blah blah. You know, to really get people to, I guess, try to get more clarity on whether they really do want to be or, cut out to be or have the capacity to be a parent or not because it's so it's so, it's why I mean, I've always thought, like, it's just absolutely crazy that, like, yeah, you know, we have to get we have to get a driver's license and this, that, and the other, and there's all these regulations around other things. But to have a human and, like, birth something into the world, we there's 0 qualifications or training or, like, prereqs for that. And so people who really should not be having kids are having kids and, you know, it's so it's so default. It's so expected. It's so, just normalized that, yeah, people don't question.

Freya Graf:

Like, I've never questioned whether I wanted to be a mom or not. I've just, I've I mean, and this is, like, very fresh for me to even be thinking, like, have I always just known I wanted to be a mom? Or was I just conditioned to feel like that? Like, I don't even fucking know anymore. Like, I've always known or, like, thought that I've known that I wanna be a mom. I wanna have kids. But, like, I, at the same time, have always been completely panicked and overwhelmed at the thought of, like, what that would actually mean and look like. And in reality, like, could I handle that? Like, am I cut out to be a mom? Do I actually want that? I've always thought, oh, it's like it's like my the it's gonna be the biggest adventure in my life. It is literally, like, the pinnacle of my life as a woman to, like, have an experience of, like, being pregnant and giving birth and then bringing out this little being in the world. And it's almost my duty to, like, try to bring up a child more consciously and intentionally and with more resources than my parents did because I wanna break the cycle.

Freya Graf:

And I wanna, you know, interrupt that intergenerational trauma that's been passed down and that, like, fucked me up. So I've kind of been, like, really, it's something I nerd out on, and I think about a lot is, like, how what kind of a parent I'm gonna be, how I'm gonna bring up a child, blah, blah, blah. But then, like, the more like, the older I get, the less ready I feel and the less equipped, you know, I feel because the world is getting harder and harder to be in and to survive in, and I can barely look after myself. So, like, what would you know, I I'm really questioning it for the first time because the time pressure thing, that's fun, isn't it? You know, you start to hit your thirties and you're like, oh, this decision, which might have been able to just organically, fold in its own time, doesn't really have the space to do that because now I can hear, like, a biological clock ticking louder and louder and louder. Plus, people are clamoring to start, you know, pointing out, you don't have kids yet. Are you gonna have kids? Do you not want them? Why? You know, so I think because of that external pressure and then the time pressure, we're kind of forced into making a split decision or jumping on an opportunity. Like, I know so many women who, like, weren't sure if they wanted to have kids, but then they accidentally got pregnant and now pushing 40. So they're like, fuck.

Freya Graf:

This could be my last chance. I'll just do it. And, like, that in itself is, like, so scary. You know? Like, the amount of people that are falling into parenthood without reflecting or questioning it and all of the prompts that you kind of, you know, provide in in your book, the stories in the podcast when without kids with the interviews. Like, all of this is so important to just, I guess, give people, like, pause to go, oh, oh, yeah. That isn't just like something that I have to automatically opt into because it's expected. And I just, like, didn't even, like, question that it might be an option for me, you know. Oh, I I can actually, like, reflect on some really it's like, you know, people also just, like, leap into marriages without, like, checking if they've got aligned values with their partner about what lifestyle they wanna lead, whether they've got financial hygiene in a similar kind of way, whether, you know, they both wanna have kids or not.

Freya Graf:

And if they do, how they wanna bring those kids up. Like, there's so many, like, like, communication breakdowns and conversations that are not being had and questions that are not being asked before we make these massively life changing decisions that affect other fucking people, like, these poor kids being born to people to parents that just don't consciously, you know and I'm not, like, blaming and judging. Like, there's a reason why this is like this, and we're just starting to kind of, yeah, I guess, like, work on it now. But Well you know, we're starting to see I will

Freya Graf:

just jump in and say, I think that, like Yeah. Majority of people existing today have been born to people who didn't really think about it. And most of us have turned out like, we're probably all a lot more aware of, like, how fucked up we are. But, you know, I think the majority of us have turned out alright. Like, here we are. We're making it work. Right? And I think, yes, the more the more, the more we think about it, probably the fewer children we'll have. The more access we have to questioning, is this the right time? Am I the right person? Do I have what it takes? Is this the right co pa co parent? The fewer children will be born.

Freya Graf:

And I think that's what we what's been happening. Right? I mentioned that people are having fewer and fewer children, and I think that's largely because people now do have the access to the decision making process that you're decide that you're describing. More people are deciding, I don't think it's for me or I don't think I'm gonna I'm in a financial place to do this. I don't think I'm gonna have I've got the support that I need to do this. I don't just don't know if I can manage this. But, also, more people are deciding, I can only have 1 kid, or maybe I can only make it work if I have 2 at the max. Right? So we've we've already seen the impact of people having access to more decision making around this subject, and that's what's causing the shrinking in the birth rate. And I think the more freedom people have to question, is this right for me? The fewer children that people will have.

Freya Graf:

And there is a lot of it it almost I cannot there's almost this kind of like, oh, well, that means that eventually people will hardly be having any children at all. Oh, and I can see where that kind of, like, scaremongering or that kind of doomsdaying comes from. But what I want to say is, what if what if only a very small percentage of people are supposed to have children? And what if we're only supposed to bring a few select people into the planet? And what if we were able to channel all the resources we have into a fewer, smaller select group of people who get to then be the recipient of more love, more attention, more energy, more money, like, more financial resource. What if that were actually a good thing? We have a smaller population that is just better resourced overall. You know? I'm not saying necessarily that would categorically be better, but I'm just kind of saying, let's let's open up to the possibility that that could be a good thing for humanity. You know?

Freya Graf:

Hey, baby babes. Sorry to interrupt. I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. There you'll find extra bits and bobs like freebies, behind the scenes or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the podcast. They'll also be, hopefully, inspiring, thought provoking conversations and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a really supportive, educational, and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me and a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to the links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge group in Facebook, and I'll see you in there.

Freya Graf:

And now back to the episode.

Freya Graf:

Totally. I remember, like, a friend had a 4 year old, and I remember being like, oh, you're gonna, like, try to give him a sibling. Because in my mind, I was like, oh my god. I feel sorry for only children. Like, it's good to have siblings. This was years ago. And he was just like, oh my god. Like, we are stretched thin as it is.

Freya Graf:

It would be selfish to try to, you know, bring another kid into the equation. Like, we wanna give every bit of energy and time and resource we can to this one kid and try to do that right. Bringing another one in would just stretch us even more thin. So, like, why would we do that? And I was like, oh, that's the first time I've heard anyone, like, make a conscious decision for really good reasons. I was like, wow. You can't argue with that reasoning. Like, that's amazing. Go go you guys.

Freya Graf:

Because, like, something that you kind of touched on earlier, which just does not get talked about enough, But I I always think about this, and I'm like, how many of you are secretly being, like, holy fuck. I wish I didn't have kids. But, you know, regretting having kids is a thing. People don't wanna admit it because, you know, they're afraid of being judged super harshly and ostracized, which they would be by so many people. But given that it's arguably, like, the biggest commitment and decision that you can make in your whole life, it makes sense that it wouldn't be for everyone. And some people would, you know, regret it once they discovered what a massive thing it is and that it completely changes their life in, like, all of these ways that they don't actually like or prevents them from thriving. And, feel like there was a study and you'd probably know the stats. Was it like 7 to 14% of parents reported regretting having kids? And that would probably be underreported because, like, how many of them would just not admit that? You know? Because it's very frowned upon to regret having your kids.

Freya Graf:

And once they're born, you're like, well, you know, I was literally chatting with someone yesterday who, had a 8 year relationship. They had split up. And then after that relationship had split up, she found out she was pregnant and decided to have it. So while they were breaking up, they were also preparing to co parent, as single parents. And, you know, he was young, did not want kids. And

Freya Graf:

he's

Freya Graf:

like, well, I mean, love him love him now, of course. Like, doing my best to be a dad, and I've stepped up. But, like, if I had the choice, definitely wouldn't have chosen to do that. Like, you know, it's been massive. So and I think, like, we have to stop shaming people for that because it it's very natural to feel that way.

Freya Graf:

Very natural. And you said some and and that story illustrates that it is possible to regret having made that decision and to deeply love your children and appreciate and value them as human beings. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. Like, it's very normal. I think it's very normal to regret, like, oh, wow. Yeah. I've made this decision, and it changed my life in all sorts of ways that I wouldn't choose for myself if I could make that decision again. And hey.

Freya Graf:

Welcome to being a human. Here I am living with the decisions I've made and making the best of it. Like that's most of us actually about lots of different things. And so, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, there was a brilliant book called regretting mother motherhood, which I quote throughout women without kids. It's by, an Israeli sociologist actually or in a donut who did a study with women who said they would have would happily talk about regretting having children. And I think she interviewed about 25 women, and just some of their the inter the interviews are just amazing, like, amazing to be breaking, work, you know, to hear people speak honestly about it and then be able to weigh that in, like, factor that in to Yeah. Because you could hear all of that.

Freya Graf:

You could know all of this, and you could still say, you know what? This is that once in a lifetime unbeatable, never repeatable adventure. And I just I'm too curious. I just have to know how it's going to be. And I, and I, I'm gonna enter into it with full awareness of everything that could go wrong, all of the challenges that it's gonna bring my way. And you know what? I still wanna do it anyway. How amazing for everyone to enter into parenthood from that place.

Freya Graf:

I think that's kinda where I'm sitting now. I'm like, yeah, I'm definitely more on the fence than I've ever been. It's never been a question for me. I'm like, I'm gonna be a mom. No doubt. No question. Amazing. And it's only in recent years that I've been, like, actually, like, how much of that is conditioning and how much of that is, like, an innate kind of desire to be a mom and Yeah.

Freya Graf:

But, you know, I I watch I watch a birth scene in a movie or even a fucking commercial, and I'll cry. Like, I cry every single time I see any kind of birth, like, fictional or no. And, like, I love all I mean, I don't know. I think through my work as well with, like, women and pregnancy and be you know, it's definitely an adventure I want to have because I'm curious. But then I'm, like, well, is that just selfish? Like, do I just wanna have this great adventure of experiencing pregnancy and birth and having a child, but then actually the having a child bit, like, am I equipped for that? So, yeah,

Freya Graf:

I'm actually for someone in this position now, you can go into you. You're now you're becoming fully aware of all those challenges. Right? So you can really start at the age that you are, and 33 is still pretty young. Like, you've still got a good suppose I mean, yeah, infertility is impacting people at younger younger and younger ages, not least because of those environmental factors that I touched on. So now is the time to really be thinking about it. But you it sounds to me like if you embark on this path, you're gonna be going into it eyes fully open, knowing what boundaries you might need to put in place, knowing what asks you might need to start making, knowing what decisions you might need to start prioritizing in order to best set yourself up to be the parent that you want to be. And that is, again, a great place to be entering parenthood from, I think.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I think it's it's very

Freya Graf:

bad about funny you said that about, like, birthing scenes. When I watch births where I even might hear pregnancy stories, I recoil and in horror a lot of the time. Finally. I'm just like, people want that. Oh my god. And I think I've always felt that way. You know, I share I write in the book about my younger brother. My mom decided to have a home birth, and that's really one of my earliest, like childhood memories when I was 3 and a half of remembering my brother, my brother being born in our little teeny tiny cottage and how terrifying it was.

Freya Graf:

And I don't know. I could get deep into the psychology if, like, did that scar me for life? I don't think it did because like my brother's arrival into our lives was so joyful. Like he was a very difficult baby. Like he was noisy, but he was always just so adorable. And there was all the pictures of my brother and me and my brother when we're kids are of me just, like, really like, I I loved him so much. And so I I don't think I was scarred by the home birth necessarily. But, yeah, I've always just the whole idea of being pregnant, giving birth has just been absolutely terrifying to me. And so

Freya Graf:

I don't

Freya Graf:

know where that came from apart from it's just an innate thing of who I am. And there are so many women who would just, like, just want, like, to have a deep yearning to experience that. And I think that's amazing and incredible. They're the ones who should be having kids.

Freya Graf:

Fully get your side of it too, though. I'm I'm simultaneously in awe and moved and horrified and scared and repulsed. Like, of course, it's fucking it's hectic. So I totally get it.

Freya Graf:

Wild. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Get it. I know. My cousin, when she was pregnant, she didn't ever think she was gonna have kids and was probably like, nah. Kinda don't want them anyway. And then randomly got pregnant kind of accidentally when she was maybe 40 or something, and she hated being pregnant. It was just like, this whole experience is awful. What the fuck? I'm not doing birth. Give me an elected c section.

Freya Graf:

Get it out the sunroof. She was just like, I'm never doing that again. Sunroof. So funny. But, something that, like, yes, something that I feel like it maybe, I'm very, not fixated on, but something I think about a lot is this fear of passing down intergenerational patterns, family dysfunction, trauma, you know, despite being quite self aware, being into personal development, really wanting to work on it, really being very consciously and intentionally and actively trying not to fuck up my kid in the same ways that I was, I'm still like, oh my god. How do I know when I'm exhausted and sleep deprived and and, you know, at my wit's end? I'm not just gonna fall back into the same patterns as my parents. And, you know, like, this this, quote, from Jenny Penn, who's amazing. I think it's something like trauma not transformed is trauma transferred.

Freya Graf:

And, like, I'm always like, oh my god. Like, you know, I'm trying to transform my trauma, but, like, there's only so much I can do. And, like, you know, I'm not gonna have sorted through all of it by the time I have kids, if I have kids. So, you know, and I know the quote I've written down, where is it from your book, when in fact, if hurt people hurt people, endlessly projecting our unprocessed pain onto others and thus creating more suffering in the world, then healing our own shit before handing it down for the next generation to fix is as valid a contribution to society as any. A purpose in and of itself. You know? And I think that was within the context of, like, oh, but, like, your only purpose as a woman and your only contribution to society is to procreate and, like, contribute to the workforce with, like, more kids and stuff. And you were kind of pointing out, like, that's such an important and valid purpose to actually just try not to hand down more unprocessed pain. So I just wanted to, like, insert that because I loved that so much.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And, I mean, I think that, you know, there's a whole sort of conscious parenting movement underway of people who are really kinda saying, I acknowledge that my trauma will be passed on to my children. It's kind if it's in you know, so much of our trauma is in our DNA. So much of our trauma is inherited from ancestors that we didn't actually consciously know. Right? And it's just kind of been passed on blindly down the generations. Like, that that is going to be passed on to your children, and I think there is a growing awareness that, actually, a lot of the healing work can be done in relationship with your children. You know? And the if you choose the path of conscious parenting, you can acknowledge all my patterns are gonna show up in my relationship with my children. With conscious awareness, I can do the work of repairing them in relationship in the way that I parent my children.

Freya Graf:

And I think that's an incredibly valuable path too, and I think that my mother definitely comes into that conscious parenting category. She came quite late to it. So a lot of the patterns had been really deeply embedded by the time she got to that work. I was I was around 12, 13 when she got to that sort of work, but, I've definitely been the beneficiary of that myself. Yeah. But, yeah, in the book, I do I write about how, you know, I I question, I suppose, what is ending with us when we decide not to have children or we're not able to have children. And I think this intergenerational trauma piece is absolutely a part of that. Looking to well, I'm not gonna pass this on to another biological child, but how can I work on my own kind of inner child's work, reparenting work? Like, literally, it's even called.

Freya Graf:

It even has these names. Right? How can I address that in myself so that my actions in the world, my work in the world, my interactions with other human beings are not gonna be replicating those same traumas, right, which I've inherited as part of my family system?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Another, not not a direct quote, but something that popped into my head that I heard. I think I was, on Jamila Jamila's podcast, and she was saying, I think she'd heard it as well somewhere. But, you know, she was like, well, would you rather get to the end of your life and regret not having kids? Because, you know, that really only affects you. Like, if you regret not having kids, then you're sad, but that doesn't affect anyone else. However, you know, or would you rather, like, having kids and then regretting it because it's affected not only your life, but then also the children that you chose to bring into the world and then their children and possibly even a whole lineage. You know? So that's, like, that really hit.

Freya Graf:

I was, like, woah. True. So And

Freya Graf:

I will say that, like, you know, I gave my mom the unedited manuscript of the book before I handed it into my publisher because I really wanted to make sure that everything I was sharing, there's a lot of stories from my life, but from her life too and some of her family background stuff. I just wanted to make sure she was okay with everything I was putting in the book. Background stuff. I just wanted to make sure she was okay with everything I was putting in the book. Yeah. And it turned out to be probably one of the most healing processes of my life, like, having the very difficult conversations that came up as a result of that between she and I. Yeah. And it made me realize that, like, wow.

Freya Graf:

You can have 4 people in the same family having a completely different experience of that family. It's fascinating. Fascinating at the time. It's very painful. But Yeah. But during the process, I remember she said to me at one point, she was like, are you are you happy that I had you? Because I think she had really got the sense that I felt, you know, that I'd been re you know, I was very aware of the damage. I was very aware of, like, the the deep like, there's deep levels of dysfunction in my family as there are in so many families. And I think she had really felt that.

Freya Graf:

Like, was it okay was it okay for me to even bring you into this shit show? And I was like, hell yes. Thank you. Like, I'm so grateful for this life. Like, yes. There's been all this hard, horrible stuff. And, yes, I'm still so glad that I'm here. Some days, I don't feel like that. Some days, it's not I feel like, god, This is hard.

Freya Graf:

Life is damn hard. It's tax season here in the moment in the UK. In the US rather, and, let alone just deep, deep despair over how my tax is spent in this country. But just the I was, you know, I was in a, like, a deli, and it's this really boujee deli in Brooklyn where I live. And this homeless guy had come in, and everyone's kind of, like, backing off and avoiding him. But he has a fistful of dollars, and he's looking for something he's wanting to buy some food. Right? And he's looking at stuff, and it's like $5 for a soda or, like, $5. He ends up buying a banana.

Freya Graf:

And, like, he went outside. He was obviously quite he was quite erratic, like and he sat down, and he's eating his banana, and he was kind of yelling. And I was just like, fuck. It's so it's such like, having a life in this world that we have created with such deep inequality, where it's so fucking hard just to, like, pay the fucking rent. That's a huge responsibility to put onto another human being, and I really felt it in that moment. It's like, fuck. How selfish to bring a human into the world because you think it's gonna make you happy and then go, there you go. Here's what rent is, by the way.

Freya Graf:

Here's what it takes to have a job, by the way. Here's what it takes to feed yourself, by the way. It's fucking huge responsibility. You know? And so, yeah, I can get quite existential about it as well, and quite misanthropic. Like, this book writing this book really made me touch closely, deeply with some of the worst parts of humanity. You know? And and I'm still glad I was born. Yeah. And and let's take that pain.

Freya Graf:

Let's take that and say, well, how can we not fix this? And I'm not a I'm not a believer in fixes, but how can we how can we try as a humanity to, like, make it a bit better, a bit easier for the new generations who who are being born? How can we, like, shoulder some of that responsibility ourselves and actually try to do something to make this world because, you know, going back to and, again, I don't wanna romanticize, like, past times necessarily, but there was a time when human beings lived in tribes, lived off the land, you know, lived in community. It just yeah. There were there were challenges, of course, but the challenges weren't the kind of intractable, like, man made, deeply unfair and deeply fixable challenges Yep. That make it so hard to find a partner, set up a good home, decide to bring chil some of the so many of the things that making it really hard to decide to bring children into the world are actually fixable. They're man made problems. We could Patriachal problems. They're patriarchal, capitalistic, extractive, industrialogized problems. Right? Like, so many of these problems are solvable.

Freya Graf:

And Mhmm. Yeah. It's just so messed up that we can't seem to figure it out.

Freya Graf:

It's so hard not to get super existential. This is, like, I'm in a constant cycle of, like Believe me. I was writing with COVID

Freya Graf:

raging, and it was and black lives matter, it was all just there. I was like,

Freya Graf:

fucking hell. Oh my god. How many mentalities did you have in What

Freya Graf:

is going on with humanity?

Freya Graf:

Oh, far out. Oh, okay. So I'm just I've got I've still got a few, like, you know, high meeting questions for you, and I'm conscious of time. I wanna quickly try to slot in the segment, get pregnant and die.

Freya Graf:

Don't have sex because you will get pregnant. End of the process. Don't have sex in the missionary position. Don't have don't have sex standing up. Just don't do it. Promise?

Freya Graf:

Do you have a story about your sex education that you want to share with us? Maybe how it failed you, maybe something that was great about it, the joke? Yeah. I mean, I

Freya Graf:

write about this in in Women Without Kids. There's a chapter called sexual evolution, and I opened that chapter by talking about how limiting sex ed is when it comes to female sexuality. I mean, honestly, what I learned was that female sexuality is for procreation.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

It almost felt like the female orgasm, for example, was just this superfluous, like, phenomenon that we didn't really need to learn anything about, that didn't really have a purpose. Yep. Don't need to ask. We're really sure about that. For men, of course, ejaculation is necessary for the furthering of the species. So boys and orgasms and masturbation, that all kinda goes together. But women and orgasms and pleasure, sexual pleasure, just seem to have no place in the conversation. And that I mean, you could, on the one hand, look at that as quite sort of surface level in a way, but it's not.

Freya Graf:

It's really deeply not. Like, I've been thinking a lot, and and this is one of the reasons I was exciting to speak to you, actually, because I haven't found another place to talk about this. Now onset of orgasmic entitlement. Okay. If you think about the sensation of an orgasm, this is a sensation of wholeness, satisfaction, fulfillment, a deep sense of just, like, coming home to oneself, belonging. Yeah. And to tell women, you don't need none none of you don't have to worry about any of that. None of that's important.

Freya Graf:

None of that's necessary. I just think it has such deep roots in terms of gender inequality. Yeah. Sorry. Obviously, it makes me really emotional, but, like, boys and men learn from as early as they become connected to their sexuality that a sense of fulfillment, a sense of deep satisfaction is their birthright. It's something that is necessary Yeah. For them. Women are not taught that.

Freya Graf:

And I just think the repercussions of that are fucking huge.

Freya Graf:

Oh my god. I've got goosebumps here. Yeah. You're talking to the right person. Because, I mean, it's not even that that. They're also

Freya Graf:

Failed me. That is how sex education failed me.

Freya Graf:

Yes. Oh, enormous. Enormous. You know? And they're taught that not only is that, like, you know, feeling of wholeness and connection and pleasure, their birthright, but they are entitled to it, and they're it yes. Exactly. Like, oh, and the fact that, you know, like, I I talk about this a fair bit, you know, the the, feeling of assertiveness, the boost in testosterone that comes from orgasm, the, sexual sovereignty, the self love, and self connection, that feeling of wholeness, everything you just described, all of that that is accessible through female orgasm. It creates women who are harder to control and who are going to speak up more and who are a little bit more headstrong and like grounded in that. So, so, you know, the patriarchal kind of structures in place cottoned onto that and we're like, oh, well, you know, and in I mean, Naomi Wolf does a beautiful job of kind of laying out all the examples of where this knowledge has been weaponized by the patriarchy has been used in wars where the soldiers are instructed to go in and shove bayonets in the vaginas of all of the women of the tribe or the, you know, the community.

Freya Graf:

It, you know, rape is part of the rape and pillage part is definitely aimed at cutting that entire kind of, culture down at the you know, where it really hurts the most because they know what a huge impact that has on the women. It's just, yeah, it's horrific. I can't even oh my god. It's a big topic. But, yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because it's so it's so important to recognize that, and I don't think many people think about it. And it's kinda like with all of this stuff, it's like the water we're swimming in. We've all been born into this, you know, this kind of environment where, like, we don't even like, I love, you know, when you talk about the patriarchal institution of motherhood and the the mummy binary, that's such a good and maybe you can kind of touch on that. That's such a good way of eliminating certain factors that, like, maybe people don't naturally reflect on or think about, because it's just just been basically, like, baseline.

Freya Graf:

Like, that's so normalized and in insidious, you know. Like, I haven't thought about that until more recent years.

Freya Graf:

Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and 5 star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster, and it's really easy to just quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving 5 stars for the show on Spotify or, even better, writing a written review and leaving 5 stars over on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're a real overachiever, you can do them both. That would be mad. If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use g rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates. Lame.

Freya Graf:

Anyway, I would personally recommend doing that right now while you're a member just to get on top of it and let me know you're with me on this journey. Thanks, gang. Enjoy the rest of the epi.

Freya Graf:

Right. I mean, in terms of the orgasmic entitlement, just go back to that quickly, the reason it's relevant to the women without kids conversation is because of what I touched on, the fact that female orgasm isn't necessary for procreation. And so, therefore, if we perceive female sexuality as being for procreation, we don't need to worry about women experiencing pleasure or sexual fulfillment. Right? The fulfillment is the baby. And that again is where that kind of, like, you will only be fulfilled when you have a baby. And what about having amazing lessons every day? Maybe I'll be a lot less worried about, you know, needing to buy all this shit to make me feel good. Like you know? Like, seriously, I think there's so much there's so much in that, and I'm I'm happy to have the space to talk about it. And I I hope that we start talking about it more because I think it's a huge missing piece.

Freya Graf:

You know? Wow. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Oh, big time. So one other thing that I, it was the concept I was introduced to a few years ago, kind of aware. And it's gaining a little bit of, I don't know. I wouldn't say popularity, but, like, it's something people are more aware of is that, you know, to to tap into your, fertility creativity, you know, this this, birthing, gestating kind of, vibe. It's a terrible way of putting that. You don't need to have a baby, you know, like we can leave a legacy. I mean, what is firstly, what is the obsession with leaving a legacy? What even, you know Totally. We can we can do that, and we can create and produce and gestate ideas and the creative projects.

Freya Graf:

And there there are other ways, you know, I've got a friend who's just turned 40. She's kind of, yeah, really come to the conclusion. Yeah. I don't actually want kids. I don't feel the need to to do that. Her business is her baby. Her business is where she births all of her, kind of, creative projects and ideas, and she yes. So I'd love to chat about, because I know that's something that you touch on as well.

Freya Graf:

It's, like, you can leave a legacy in other ways than popping out a kid.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Well, it's I mean, the legacy p I do. Again, it's such a patriarchal I mean, it literally has its roots in patriarchy. Legacy is literally about the material inheritance that we pass on to the next generation to ensure the kind of, like, immortality of our own genetic kind of imprint, I suppose. Hence why children are supposed to take their father's name because it's all about the father carrying on his legacy in the world and his sort of genes and his family and the you know? But but but, I mean, literally, from an existential place as well, like, material inheritance being literally my physical my physicality will be continued in my children. I will therefore, I will never die. I mean, it stems from this fear of death. And when I think about legacy, like, I've, I don't know, I just weirdly always been quite accepting of, like, yep.

Freya Graf:

I'm here for a blip, and then I'm gone, and that's that. And I'm okay with that. Like, I don't I guess.

Freya Graf:

I don't

Freya Graf:

get that. Need to live forever. Yeah. But, anyway, yes. The last chapter is called an other legacy, and it thinks about, like, other ways that we can leave a quote, unquote legacy. And I mean, I do think that in whatever ways we're able to bring our creativity forth, You know? Some of for some of us, that's in our work. For others, that will be in other ways. I think that anything that we create and put specifically anything that we create that has some kind of an impact on other human beings is a legacy of sorts.

Freya Graf:

You know? Like, literally, you and I doing this podcast, we have no idea how many people are gonna listen to this, how it might impact their lives, how it might impact their choices, the conversations that they're having with their friends. Like Mhmm. All of that is is legacy in a way. You know? Yeah. All of it is about what's our contribution. You know, what's our contribution? Children are one one contribution of many than a that a person can make. Within that, I do want to say, obviously, having a child and being a parent is a very specific job and a very specific experience. There's nothing that can kind of replicate the specificity of that experience in terms of the other creative endeavours and the other things we might do or or make with our lives.

Freya Graf:

But I think that, again, like, this comes back to the kind of feminist piece in a way because only it's really only in the past century have and I was gonna say a majority of women, but, obviously, this isn't speaking for all women globally. But in the cultures where I where you and I exist, and probably a lot of the people listening, it's only already in the past 50, 60 years that women have had equal opportunities in terms of pursuing other avenues with their lives

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

To motherhood or very kind of, specific kind of female focused professions, teaching, nursing, essentially care work, you know, have been the only real options for women. So there haven't really been options for women to explore fulfilling career paths in the way that we think of those, you know, in the way that we're talking about careers that do where we do potentially get to use our creative gifts, where we do get to make a difference on a kind of, like in in the public life, not just in the private sort of, like, home sphere. So this, again, is a really new development. And I think the idea that going back to the beginning of our conversation, what if you regret not having kids, speaks to this idea that there will come a point when you, you know, you're you're looking back at your life and you you haven't been fulfilled. You know? And I think that that negates the fact that there are now so many so many ways that we can be fulfilled and so much freedom when it comes to deciding how we want to live our lives. You know?

Freya Graf:

Totally. There's so many ways to create meaning and purpose that don't require having a kid to give you that purpose or to fill a hole or a void in your life. And I think, like, for those who just know that that's their purpose, like, beautiful. Like, what an incredible role in in the, you know, in your life, in the world to play. But, I mean, I and and I used to think of I used to think of, like and this is just, like, shows the strength of the the conditioning. I used to feel really sad when some well, I've made a woman and she'd say she didn't wanna have kids or she hadn't had them, and I would always assume, oh, she didn't have them because she mustn't be able to. I couldn't fathom that someone would make the decision not to have them. I was like, what's wrong with you? Something's missing.

Freya Graf:

There's some, you know, which is obviously, like, you talk about this fear of feeling like there's something wrong with you or something biologically, you know, different that you don't have that, like, that bone in your body that makes you wanna become a mom. And I actually used to feel like that. I was like, oh, that's so sad. They're going to regret it. They're going to just feel like they've got this empty meaningless life. Like, what are they going to do with that time? They're going to hit a certain age and just, you know, like, I'm just, like, what? My life's so full. I cannot fathom having a freaking kid in it. Like, I don't I don't know what I was thinking, but that just goes to show how strong

Freya Graf:

I am now. It is. Conditioning. That's the conditioning. Like, that what your that's the conditioning that's kind of playing on a loop in your head. Going back to, like, your you know, the the the yearnings that you've had or the the joy potential joy that you feel about potentially having a children, that didn't sound so much like conditioning to me as what you were just describing those judgment. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And it's interesting to now start to try to pull it apart and be, like, what is the programming and conditioning? What is actually my Intrinsic in me. Desire? Yes. Yeah. And, you know, like, do I and even with that intrinsic desire to have a kid and become a mom, does that still outweigh all of the my rational kind of reasoning of, like, oh, but it's a really, like, quiet time to bring a kid into the world. I'm not financially stable. I don't have enough. Like, I would never ever even though I, you know, if I desperately wanted kids, I wouldn't just do that for my reasons if I didn't have, you know, financial stability, relationship stability, everything kind of all my ducks in a row.

Freya Graf:

And this is kinda like something that, that I I feel like you have something to say about this, but I hear this sort of thing all the time, coming from parents generally who seem to just deliver this little gem of unsolicited advice very sagely, as though they're the authority on it. Actually, I think it's like with drinking. Like, people that drink when you stop drinking, they wanna drag you down with them and they'd feel really uncomfortable that you're not drinking because that's highlighting the fact that they're, you know so I feel like people wanna peer pressure you into, like, dragging them down into where they are. But when I say I don't really feel ready to have kids, like, if people are questioning, I'm like, oh, I don't feel anywhere near ready to have kids. Like, are you kidding me? And they say, oh, but you're never gonna feel ready, but you just make it work. You know, you basically should it's basically like, oh, yeah. You should just, like, go for it, you know, within the expected time frame that you're supposed to fucking have kids. And then you just have to step up when the time comes, and you'll surprise yourself and, you know, it'll all be fun, and everyone fucks up their kids anyway.

Freya Graf:

So, you know, just just, you know, that common joke about, like, oh, just stop putting away some money into a savings account to pay for their therapy when they're grown up. You know? Oh, I haven't I haven't heard

Freya Graf:

that one before, but oh my god. Okay.

Freya Graf:

I've heard that quite a few times. Yeah. And I'm like Wow. That seems like really bad advice. Like, that is a crock of shit. Like, are you kidding? Sure. Maybe you never feel fully, fully, fully, fully ready, or you do feel ready, but you of course, you can't, but you don't know what it's actually gonna take to be a parent or what kind of fucking kid you're gonna have. But I'm like, okay.

Freya Graf:

Fuck off out of my face with that because I'm telling you I don't feel ready, and I'm definitely the authority on whether I'm ready or not because I know what's going on in my head and my life. Don't peer pressure me into having kids. Like, yeah. Anyway

Freya Graf:

Yeah. No. I mean, I do. I speak to that specifically in the book. My I mean, I think there is an element of truth in, yes, this is a life experience that you can't really predict how it's gonna impact you. Like you say, not least because you don't know what kind of kid you're gonna get. Right?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

And I think there are some things you just can't fathom until you've actually experience them. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Totally.

Freya Graf:

But, I mean, I know so many people who have felt so ready to have a kid, so ready, so ready that they will spend tens of 1,000 of dollars doing IVF because they're that ready. They need to do it. They've got to do it. This is the time. And so, yeah, I think again, that just come that's very old. It's kind of like there was so when you start looking for them, we start listening out for them. There are so many things that people say kind of just on repeat. It's almost like the the conditioning that gets passed down unconsciously, and we just kind of act it out without really realizing we're doing it.

Freya Graf:

There are phrases and sayings that are, similar, and this is one of them. Like, nobody ever feels ready. Yes. First of all, lots of people do feel ready. And, actually, now that I have the now that I have the choice and the agency, I can try and get ready. And if that doesn't happen in the time frame, then so be it, you know, because there are other things I can do with my life. It's just very, very old fashioned thinking that is born from a time period when people just didn't have the choices or the information that they have now. I mean, the thing about, like, the saving up for your kids' therapy, I don't know.

Freya Graf:

In a way, it's kinda hilarious because I do think that the most ready parents who are doing everything right, people's like, life is still gonna happen to people, and they're probably still gonna need therapy. Yeah. Life is gonna fuck

Freya Graf:

them up. Like, you don't know

Freya Graf:

who they're gonna them up. Like, let alone not knowing, like, what you're kind of what what how it's gonna like, you the world that they're they're living in, you don't know who they're gonna meet. You don't know what their situation at school is gonna be like. You don't know what's gonna happen to them. Like, you can't safeguard against all of that. And I think that, yes, if we try to do that, none of us would ever do anything. Right? So there is an element of risk taking in any big life decision that we make because we can't possibly always know all the outcomes or safeguard for all the outcomes. But this is one of those life choices that does impact another human being.

Freya Graf:

And not only that, but also impacts the society that we're living in and the world that we're living in. So, yeah, I think airing on the side of caution in this area is probably the best bet for everybody involved.

Freya Graf:

I think it's smart. I think it's a smart way to go. Don't have a band aid, baby, to save your relationship or to fill a void. Oh, no. Like, maybe get some therapy and some hobbies and seeing what you're

Freya Graf:

And then also, you know, I also have quite a strong kind of spiritual bent, let's say. Yeah. And I do think that, like, everybody has karma. Right? And it's some people's karma to be this is gonna sound a bit harsh. It's some people's karma to be born into kind of a fucked up situation, have those life lessons be part of their life path. You know? Mhmm. And, again, I think that I see part of my work as a creator as offering tools and offering support to people who are grappling with these really difficult life decisions because I've had to I've grappled with them myself. My parents have both grappled with this stuff, and it's like part of my karma, I suppose, having been born into a deeply dysfunctional family, has been about grappling with that dysfunction and making something out of it.

Freya Graf:

Totally. Yeah. And, you know, something I wanna make sure I kinda highlight or leave people with is, like, obviously, we get quite heavily, less and less, but, you know, heavily judged or criticized. And and even in insidious kind of subtle ways where, like, there seems to be this, I don't know, belief that if you haven't gone through this initiation of becoming a mom, you are less developed or less whole or less mature.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

Don't really have that with jazz, though, do we? Mhmm. And I just think, like, if you can throw that in the bin because, like, it actually serves the world so much better for that to be, you know, some child free people who have the energy and the time and the, you know, capacity to support others that are in the parenting role or to be the cool auntie or to, be in roles. I mean, that frees up women to be in roles, like, in in corporate roles, politics, positions of power, policy making. I mean, it's it's definitely doing a community service in an in a different way to, like, decide not to have kids and to dedicate your life to other pursuits as well. You know? Yeah. So, yeah, I guess, like, if there's if there's anything that you would wanna leave people with or emphasize or even maybe some, you know, some questions for people to reflect on, say, they are on the fence about whether to have, you know, kids. What would you love to say for people?

Freya Graf:

Well, I suppose it's just something that was coming up as you were talking there. Like, I thought a lot about if you if humanity has sort of been left to its natural devices and we haven't had all of the technological and industrial and medical interventions that we had, I think we'd actually find that it was quite natural for not everybody to have children. You know? And that any society does benefit from having adult humans who are not caught up in the daily Yeah. Rearing of children. Right? I think that that's and so I suppose something to I guess I'd maybe just like to leave people with that as a reflection. What if what if what if what it was natural and normal was for not everybody to have kids? And, actually, only the people who really felt a very strong calling to that vocation to pursue that path. What would our society look like then? What would our individual lives look like then? Who would who would we expect to have children, and what expectations would we have for, you know, other adults in society. And it's just really interesting stuff to reflect on as we are.

Freya Graf:

It's such a like, it feels like we're a real kind of crucial turning point. I I don't know that, you know, I think most generations think this on some level. Like, we're a turning point for humanity. But I do think that with the new technologies that are coming in and all the conversations around AI and industrialisation, etcetera, and globalisation, I do think we're at quite a a kind of evolutionary crunch point, and I think that this shift in terms of demographics, like in terms of the drop off in the birth rate and fewer people having children, is a part of that, and I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's maybe part of the the big grand plan. And so what if we started looking at it that way? You know? I think it's an interesting place maybe to close and to to leave people.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Beautiful. I love that. So you didn't didn't think you got off without a TMI, did you? I just remembered. So is it right at the end? If you can't remember, that's fine. But has has the conversation sparked any ideas of what and it doesn't have to be, like, sex related or, you know, it can be something funny. It can be something vulnerable. It can just I mean, TMI is literally the sort of stuff that people find to to do to talk about, and I feel like you deal in talking about stigmatized things.

Freya Graf:

Right? Oh, no. Share my books.

Freya Graf:

I suppose something something I have been I do love talking about periods, which is I don't know. It's feeling less and less taboo, but and probably not at all taboo for you. But one thing that's fascinating to me is I so I you know, I'm 48. I don't even believe that I'm perimenopausal. And Wow. My period because I had anorexia in my teens, as a result of a relationship that I was in very, very abusive relationship, which I do write about in the book. I actually and something I didn't put in the book because not because it was TMI. It just there just wasn't really space that kind of interrupted the flow.

Freya Graf:

It was a whole other tangent. I actually believe that on some level, the flow. It was a whole other tangent. I actually believe that on some level, I developed an eating disorder to shut my reproductive system down so that I wouldn't get pregnant with that person. That is, like, just something that I believe about my body. But, anyway, all of which is to say my period has been irregular off, like, ever since

Freya Graf:

then. Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

It was always I just yeah. It was always very long, patchy. Never really knew when it was coming. It was kind of all over the place. Mhmm. And that was massively annoying because it just you know, it's just annoying. Anyway, my period completely regulated as soon as I started working on this book. Since What? Full since summer 2020, when I started working on the proposal for this book, my period has come between every 26 29 days without fail, and I'm 48.

Freya Graf:

I'm like

Freya Graf:

Oh my.

Freya Graf:

This to me is just like but it just to me, again, going back to that sort of more mystical spiritual side of myself, I truly believe that writing this book and really getting clarity around not only my decision not to have children, my family history, where we're at in terms of our society, my place in the the the history of womankind has sort of just Yeah. I don't know. I just feel like on a biological spiritual level, something's just clicked into place.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

And I'm so grateful now that I have regular periods because I can plan my life around my cycle, which I've it's just a it's game changer.

Freya Graf:

Totally. Totally. You know? It's so good when it's predictable. Hey. It's Oh my gosh. Having super erratic periods. You just would never know when it was getting You

Freya Graf:

never know when it's PMS. You never know. Like, you just can't I don't know. But now I can really plan around my cycle, and that's so empowering. You know? So, so that's the kind of because I think some people think periods are TMI. Probably not your listeners, but I'm fascinated with cycles, periods, like, all of that stuff.

Freya Graf:

Oh, I love that. No. That was a perfect story. That's, so interesting. I mean, it also doesn't surprise me. Like, it makes sense that, obviously, that book writing process was so healing and so empowering.

Freya Graf:

The writing of the book, but then the conversations that I had with my mother in particular about the contents of the book and the conversations that we had about the other mothers and the women in our shared lineage. Like, I just feel like giving a voice to all those stories, even if just for myself, has just settled something in my being. Oh. That's just such a gift. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Oh, god. Goosebumps. That's amazing. Oh, thank you so much, Ruby, for being, yes, so generous of your time. I know we've gone a little bit over, and just so much, yeah, thought provoking wisdom. I'll put links to your website and books and everything in the show notes. Is there anything else you wanted to just plug or say Yeah. Wrap up?

Freya Graf:

I'm kind of annoyed that I hadn't that I kind of, like, got all emotional talking about orgasmic entitlement because I was hoping you'd use that as an audio clip to promote the episode, but now I hope you don't. Anyway, maybe you can find a bit where I'm not, like, breaking down about how unfair it is that men get to have orgasms.

Freya Graf:

Hey, Megan. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it 5 stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I I wanna mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote, tea, togs. Yep. You heard that right. I even have labia lounge bathers, or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So, if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my buy me a coffee donation page, which is actually called buy me a soy chai latte because I'll be the first to admit. I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that. And yes, that is my coffee order.

Freya Graf:

You can do a one soft donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as 3 fat ones a month. And I also offer 1 on 1 coaching coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way. So every bit helps because it ain't cheap to put out a sweet podcast, into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be undyingly grateful if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself. Salty. And, I'll pop the links in the show notes. Thank you.

Freya Graf:

Later.

Freya Graf:

No. I I do have there's gonna be an in person, women without kids retreat. Now it's happening in Massachusetts at the end of September with Rachel Cargill, who runs the childfree account. We are she runs the account rich auntie supreme, but there is gonna be an online option so that people can also join via live stream from all around the world. So I'll share the link to that with you as well. That's gonna be a weekend long retreat getting really deeply into this questioning process that we've been discussing. Is this right for me? Isn't this right for me? You know, what are my options? What are my choices? What does it mean to be a woman without kids?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Amazing. Oh, I've been following Rich Aunty Supreme for ages. I think she's so great. So that's an amazing pairing. Yes. Beautiful. Alright.

Freya Graf:

Everyone, check that out. Follow Ruby's work. Read the book. Yeah. Thank you so much, Ruby.

Freya Graf:

Oh, Thanks again for having me. It's lovely to meet you.

Freya Graf:

And that's it, darling hearts. Thank you for stopping by the labia lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it, just waiting for you to sink back in for some more double l action next time. And in the meantime, if you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode or leave a review on iTunes, then you can pat yourself on the snatch because that, my dear, is a downright act of sex positive feminist activism. And you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatize with this here podcast. Also, I'm always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered or guest suggestions. So feel free to get in touch via my website atfrerograph.com or say hi over on Insta. My handle is freya_graf_ymt and I seriously hope you're following me on there because damn, we have fun.

Freya Graf:

We have fun. Anyway, later labial legends. I'll see you next time.