Manu:

This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets.

Freya Graf:

Welcome welcome, my lovely lumps, or should I say lovely labs? I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge to yarn about All things sexuality, womanhood, holistic health, and everything in between, your legs. Can never help myself. Anyway, we're gonna have vagloads of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up. You're about to receive the sex ed that you'd never had, and have a bloody good laugh while you're at it. Before we get stuck in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this, the Penang people. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content on Noongar country, and I pay respect to their elders past, present, and emerging. Now, if you're all ready, let's flap and do this.

Freya Graf:

Oh, god. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. I'm leaving it in. It's my podcast.

Freya Graf:

Hi, all you labial legends. Welcome back. I've got a special guest today back by popular demand. Manu actually came and sat on the labia lounge with me at Comfort Creek, the little festival that I did the live recordings at and, had a chat with me. And I've had Several people contact me and be like, oh my gosh. Who is that, like, Italian man that, like, intimacy coach? Like, I loved what he was speaking about. And, Yeah. People are, like, fucking getting their panties wet over you at the moment, Manu.

Freya Graf:

So I thought I'd just welcome you back, and we could do a

Freya Graf:

full episode. How are you going?

Manu:

That was fun. I'm I'm great. I'm great. Thank you. Thank you for having me here. It's, yeah, it's a pleasure for me.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. No sweat. Well, I'll do a little intro to you so people can have a bit of context about who you are and your background, and then we'll just launch in because I wanna chat about intimacy, masculinity. I know you work Predominantly with men as an intimacy coach. So, yeah, keen to pick your brains about some things in that department. So I'm gonna try and do my best, Italian pronunciation of your name. Manuel Paradiso is an intimacy coach working 1 on 1 with, individuals and couples. His academic background in communication and semiotics broadened his horizons, but Travel and transformative experiences truly shifted his outlook.

Freya Graf:

Integrating intellect, spirituality, and sexuality has been a significant personal journey for him involving much exploration of diverse spiritual communities and delving into esoteric subjects and psychology. His mission today is to guide and inspire people, especially men, on the path of conscious growth through deep intimacy and authentic relating. His offerings include online courses, coaching, play shops, retreats, and facilitation at events internationally. Dope. Welcome. Welcome back. I'm so stoked to have you, and I guess The 1st port of call would be like, we're gonna be talking a lot about intimacy, and I think people have different ideas of what this is, different definitions. What Is your kind of personal and professional definition of true intimacy?

Manu:

That's a great question. And, yeah, Think it's, it's important to keep reflect on this question. Also for me to keep talking about this. So, of course, during the years, my definition of intimacy has shifted a lot. And, before, I was I think this is a common pattern when I believe that many people see intimacy as Connected strictly connected to this fear of sexuality. At least, I was one of them. And, And nowadays, I see that as very different. I see, like, the sphere of sexuality is inside the sphere of Intimacy.

Manu:

So this fear of intimacy is a much larger sphere. And, and also that During the years that I mature that this point of view, I also understood how before since I was Connecting the 2 intimacy and sexuality, like, almost synonyms. And so that I was looking For intimacy into sexuality. Right? And nowadays, I see that Intimacy is something, as I said, bigger. So it's like a connection between my most authentic part of me Wait. The most authentic part of another person. If we talk about intimacy between 2 people. Because then there is a even a much larger perspective to embrace today where I can mention after.

Manu:

But limiting now about, 2 people. That's so what I believe it is. So from my heart, let's say, To the another person heart as much, authentic as possible, and that it start to be an intimate connection. The masks are are off, sort of, and we meet in our true self. Then this kind of relationship, I can have it not necessarily just with a person. I can have intimacy with Within myself. And this is actually another discovery. I understood that let me shift the definition of intimacy.

Manu:

That intimacy, it's a word that comes from the Latin intimus. It means from within. So from within, I connect. Within myself, I find intimacy. In inside me. So I understood that in order to create true intimacy, I need to with someone I need first to be able to find that intimacy within myself. And what does that mean? It means Knowing myself, like know yourself. Right? That's a very classic philosophical thing pillar on the Inner work.

Manu:

And yeah. So I would say to reformulate again, the answer, I I would say that intimacy, it's, the most authentic relationship possible that we can have with ourself that allow us then to have The most authentic relationship possible with another person or with our environment or With the universe, some people call it God or life, whatever.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Beautiful. I think it's like it's often conflated with sex and sexuality. Like people kind of think Intimacy and sex are the same thing or they have to go hand in hand. And this is, yeah, really misguided, and I think a lot of sex or sexual expression is completely devoid of intimacy, and that's why a lot of people are out here having shit sex. And it's just sad to me that intimacy is something that we need coaches for. But, yeah, I think these days, it's not something that comes As naturally to a lot of people, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on why intimacy Can be really difficult for people or or what common barriers you see to intimacy, you know, in in maybe your clients that come to you for help with this. Like, what is getting in the way? Why do they find intimacy difficult? What are the barriers?

Manu:

Yeah. That's another important question. And So there are all the masks or everything that that it's in the middle between me and the most authentic expression of myself. It's in the middle of intimacy For the definition I gave it before. Right? So what's in the middle the question I can begin with, what's in the middle between me and the most authentic self? 1st, I would say immediately, my beliefs. Already believing that there is nothing in the middle, That's really a big thing in the middle. If if anyone here listening thinks that there is nothing in the middle between them and their most authentic self, So there is a huge elephant that they don't wanna see. That's that's a big sign because not even the most enlightened teacher, I heard him say that he's completely, like, completely free from the ego games and, and their person distorted personalities.

Manu:

So that's that's one thing. And and I think it's a very important point because That's how why it's difficult. I found it difficult to work with, with men Because I found there is often in men's assumption that they're really good in intimacy. They have nothing to learn from anyone, especially from another guy. And and they have just very positive feedbacks and they trust that feedback because it's very convenient to trust that Feedback without considering that other person have good reason to lie, and we can talk about that also. So This is one thing, our beliefs. And they believe that we are perfect, that we are done is a big thing in the middle of the intimacy. Then our masks, our conditioning from our family, from our culture, from from the moment in history where we are.

Manu:

These are big thing that, are in the middle be with the most authentic expression of ourself. Right? So I will I would say more like, if you have a specific thing to point out. But this is generically, what they would point out.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. I think, like, a real discomfort with vulnerability and and, I guess, like, an inability to access our own authenticity. Those are some things I feel like are commonly getting in the way of true intimacy Diane, like, not really seeing it role modeled anywhere in a healthy way, you know, thinking that vulnerability equates to Weakness or, you know, something to be ashamed of and try to hide. So, like, that's that sort of, yeah, discomfort with showing The deeper, more vulnerable layers of ourselves, I guess, comes from, like, yeah, insecurities, feeling the need to Appear a certain way and, like you said, have these masks, and curate people's experience of us. Like, Basically trying to control how people see us, and therefore not show vulnerability. Like, I think if If we stop trying to control how people saw us and what they thought about us, and we actually just allowed, you know, some of those masks to drop And to show more of a full spectrum of ourselves, like, not just the happy, sunny, fair weather parts of our selves, but the more deep, dark shadow sides or the vulnerable sides or when we're in a really sad mood or we're Irritable or grumpy or whatever. Like, just allowing people into, that inner sanctum where they can see Us as our authentic selves in all of the different, you know, expressions of that, I feel like that's That fosters intimacy and it fosters, like, safety and trust. But so many people are very uncomfortable with that and don't Think that they're going to be accepted and because we so desperately wanna belong and, you know, So evolutionarily, like, we needed to belong.

Freya Graf:

Otherwise, we'd be ostracized and our survival would be at stake. We do everything we can, Mostly, like, subconsciously to try to belong and to try to be accepted. And so in our society, that's, like, Especially, I think, towards men trying to tell us that vulnerability is weakness, and we don't wanna show weakness, or people won't love us or find us attractive, or we're not worth Worthy. Yeah. Like, it makes sense that we're kind of, I guess, hiding these parts of ourselves and not feeling safe enough or comfortable enough About those aspects of our character to let anyone see them or to share them with people. Would you kind of agree with that?

Manu:

That was a big wrap. Thank you. The we are opening the chapter of vulnerability. I thank you for that. Yeah. Let's go there. So that was implicit. I I I agree with you.

Manu:

Let's begin with that. I agree totally with what you said, And, there is so much to add. So that was implicit in what already say, right? Because we need to access our own vulnerability. If we want to Be honest with ourselves if we want to uncover our masks, if we want to be able to, to be the 1st to see our own shadows, what's Beneath what's behind, what we cover our face with, right, our behaviors with, behind our conditioning. So there is all sort of things that are repressed by our conditioning, by our fears, by our beliefs that are There, they would not get out and it's painful to look at that. It's painful because often are things that are not We believe that are not accepted out there, out there by our family, by our Partner, potential partners, by our friends, brothers and sisters. But first of all, it's just we, Of course, don't accept that because we project that non acceptance outside. So we don't accept that size of us.

Manu:

To to in order to go there And feel that very uncomfortable sensation of, oh, this is who am I? Which is not true. We we we are much more and we are mystery, but we need to go even into that thing like, oh, I am like that. I am I don't know whatever, part of us we reject, go through that acceptance. It's very, very uncomfortable. So, yes, we that's require the need to feel vulnerable. And and this is something that Not only we there is this big clear, discussion about Men's vulnerability, how men should be more vulnerable, how women are more used to be vulnerable. Yes. This is a a common narrative, but I don't agree completely with that.

Manu:

I believe that nowadays, even women are, are in the same way that men had been educated for a long time. Like, don't show yourself Vulnerable and only in certain context only for certain reasons. Especially due to the business approach, Like,

Freya Graf:

Oh, the Boss Bitch culture. Right. Totally. We kinda like play by the men's rules and oh my god. Absolutely.

Manu:

So the the that's That's goes not only for men, but also for women. And at the same time, there is more and more discussion open publicly about that Couldn't, address to men. So there is more and more awareness about that, of course. But I was reflecting about this few days ago on the connection between vulnerability and intimacy and connect to men and what came on top of this Was what came to me on top of this is that the reason I believe that the reason why men don't want to work on their own Sexuality and their own, like, the sexual aspects of their intimacy often. It's because it's the most vulnerable part of them. Why? Many men are seeking again intimacy through sexuality. And they're leaving that on a way that they can that it's Pleasant for them. At least they believe it's pleasant because they don't maybe I have experienced different ways, but And we can go there also.

Manu:

But so the sexuality is a way that where they can receive pleasure and they also they can discharge their tensions, through the direct physical activity, but especially through the ejaculation. So the 4 becomes something like, I need intimacy, and there is, like, inner Need, which is maybe not obvious consciously to many men. Therefore, I need sexual contact with someone. And there are many talks about, like, from, sex workers that they they can Confirm that how many men they pay them just to talk. Yeah. Right? Not without having sex because they feel they have no intimacy. And so there are many men that they do this equation, and then it should be pleasant. And the pleasure comes from also my discharge of all these tensions that is still connected from my not living my Authentic life.

Manu:

So I use sex as a way to discharge this tension, take this pleasure, feel good, and move on. Had they been clear enough? What do you think?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Totally. Like, there's lots of things in what you just said. I feel like the yeah. It's it's it's challenging for all genders, I think, just because we don't have, like a lot of healthy kind of blueprints or framework for intimacy and vulnerability, but I definitely feel like I notice A lot with men, like, it's it's extra challenging because, like, they it's almost like we we've all bought into this, You know, narrative that, like, men don't need intimacy as much as women or whatever, but, like, they absolutely do and they yearn for intimacy, but they probably whether they realize it or not, really need that, but just don't have, I guess, like, As much of an idea about how to have a healthy outlet for that. And so for them, like, intimacy, like, the intimacy needs, they'll often, like, get that From sexual settings, which is, you know, why, like, even even the men that come in and, see sex workers and don't have sex, like, it's still Within the context of, like, this is a sexual service, but actually what they're after is intimacy. So they're like, oh, we don't need to have sex. I just want the girlfriend experience, or I just want some company or some eye contact or some touch.

Freya Graf:

And they wanna save space, and they think the only safe space where they can actually get that those intimacy needs met, You know, is in that sexual context, which is really fucking sad because there's so many other ways of Feeling, you know, and expressing and exploring intimacy and receiving that, beautiful kind of reciprocal, Energetic exchange that is, you know, being intimate with people and it doesn't have to be. It can be platonic. It doesn't have to be sexual. So, yeah, I really I feel I feel you on that, and I think, like, then there's this other I know this is something that you talk about. There's this other, Tricky thing that that men in particular really struggle to find a balance with, which is, like, they're really primal, Sexual kind of wild urges with more, like, intentional, you know, expression of Intimacy that's that's very kinda conscious and and it's it's like yeah. It's a tricky thing to to balance And to find a a place where you still get to, like, you know, be in that, like, primal wild animalistic energy of, like, Sexual urges and whatever. But, yeah, I guess in a way that's not disconnecting you from the other person or from, I guess creating a space where you're able to be vulnerable as well. Like, what do you think? That was really poorly phrased, But do you kinda know what I mean? Like, how do you find a place where you can explore both? Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Manu:

Yeah. I am that's a that's a good direction. We don't have education on that. Right? We are right. Otherwise, you would not have doing probably even this podcast, in your your own podcast. Right? So we don't know. And, everything we know, it's true. Well, that's a Kind of cliche to say, but it's like this.

Manu:

Everything we know is true, like, very distorted information. And 3rd, 4th hand information and education, which is not really real about around the sphere of sexuality. Right? So we agree with that. So men as a man, I grew up In a culture where, like, you know, all I have to do, it's like to be attractive to women, go chase the women, have Find the woman that has, like, can, yeah, agree to have sex with me, basically, and And have sex, and and that was coming kind of very intuitive for a bunch of movies I saw and Tales from other friends, and and that's it. Nothing not so much. And and then Maybe rely on some feedback which were never really nowadays, I discovered they were not really I didn't receive much real good feedback. So there we go. So that's that's the way that's the way I touch myself Because I learned to touch myself in that way.

Manu:

So that's the way I take pleasure. So that's the way I can have pleasure with another person By this friction in my genitals and focusing on, in my ejaculation. And if, if you have Some common sense as a man. You wait first for her, orgasm, and then you Finally, you can have your that's basic the basic education that we grew up with. The problem is That as you know and as you share, it's so much fast. And so sex, it's, something that can be Explored in many different ways. Right? Especially the energy, this primordial energy you're talking about. We need spaces where people can can facilitate us To feel these different ways where we can move our energy, where we can play our energy.

Manu:

And we need these spaces Where we can interact and learn how to interact with other people from that from that energy, which doesn't have to be necessarily a sexual connection, But feeling our sexual energy, feeling that our sexual energy, it's not necessary connect to our genitals. Feeling that our sexual energy is not necessarily Something that has needs a a sexual outcome, and this is already something we are going already in a field that is very weird for many people even to listen to this. And, also, especially for men, We need to see that we need to learn that sex is not about orgasm. Sex is not about ejaculation. And and finally, one of my biggest points the in my sexual life, my biggest shift is, like, To stop to chase for the ejaculation, for my own ejaculation as of the peak of my pleasure. So detach my pleasure from the ejaculation. They get away from the obsession of ejaculation. And there are all sort of practices and all sort of, way to live that that that can lead to To finally have a much larger horizon, much larger view and experience in the in the sexual sphere.

Manu:

Yeah. So I wanna I wanna leave I wanna drop it here, but there's so much we can expand from this.

Freya Graf:

Totally. Yeah. It's a big topic. I'd love to do the segment get pregnant and die.

Manu:

Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and die. Don't have sex in a position. Don't don't have sex standing up. Just don't do it. Promise?

Freya Graf:

So do you have a story about your sex education maybe back in school or maybe your parents, you know, giving you the talk? Tell me a bit about your sex ed and, like, where it failed you or maybe where it did a great job.

Freya Graf:

Hey, babe town. So sorry to interrupt, but I simply had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that you've gotta get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. And there you'll find Extra bits and bobs like freebies or discounts for offerings from guests who've been interviewed on the podcast, inspiring and thought provoking conversations, and support From a community of labial legends. I also have an account on the fab new app, Sunroom, which is a platform created by women for women and non binary folk, and And where there's no shadow banning or censorship of sex positive content, unlike with the other platforms that I'm on. So you can hit up my sunroom for extra content and real and raw life updates because I'll be sharing on there from now on all of the stuff that I can't post anywhere else. My vision for both of these is that they become really supportive, educational, and hilarious resources for you to have More access to me and a safe space to ask questions that you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to the links in the show notes, and I'll hopefully see you in there.

Freya Graf:

And now back to the episode.

Manu:

Yeah. There are There are different things. So the sec one of one of the thing that, it was is coming Along with what we just said is that it's quite, this is quite obvious, but it's worth to mention. And, Yeah. Because I I as old men, old people, I receive, like, well, as as old men, I receive the education that I need to, yeah, I need to ejaculate, and I need to wait for the other person orgasm, and I need to have an orgasm myself. This is education I received. And, as I already mentioned, The highest form of education in from that point of view was, like, really, be able to wait for her and then But wait for her orgasm. And when she finally has her orgasm, that's good, and then you can have your own nature condition.

Manu:

But then there was a point in my life where I was with this woman, and And, she told me, hey. You know? Calm down. It's not about the orgasm. Like, she was feeling my my work, my physical My physical work on trying to make her come, it was our 1st encounter. And she was like, hey. Like, it's okay. Don't don't try there is nothing you need to try. And that moment, this very simple phrase, in that moment was kind of I finally heard something in the right moment, And it blew it blew my mind.

Manu:

And I said, what? Wait. Because I already heard that, but it didn't click anything before. But in that moment from that person

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Manu:

And in my and in my path, I was hearing that it clicked, and I felt, what? Am I are you saying that you're okay if I not try to make and they said, no. There you don't need to make me anything. Like, I want you here present. So I understood that I was out of my presence on trying to make her, Let's say what was in my eyes a favor.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Manu:

And, also, if you wanna say I mean, add more, like, For my ego also, like, feeling good for my ego because I made I made her come. Like, no. Now this is like, no. No. That's not how it were. I'm not making anyone coming. I may help and support her to have an orgasm, but, like And it's not for my ego that's and and it's not even the goal. Otherwise, we are, yeah, detached from each other.

Manu:

And then there is a lack of intimacy. Then there is no intimacy anymore because we are not connected with each other. We're connected with an idea, with a goal that we need to to chase.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. As soon as it becomes goal oriented, yeah, intimacy kinda goes out the window because your focus is not Not on fostering deeper connection in Italy. It's about making this end result happen. But that's so interesting that you had, like, This, like, permeating, I guess I mean, I don't know where you got this sex education that, like, you have to wait For her to come or make sure she comes 1st before you do, but, like, I'm pretty sure Aussied Hoots did not get that message. It's like, You know, it's all about the ejaculation, and sex isn't over until he comes. And the female orgasm is kinda like, You know, a bonus if it happens, but honestly, it's, like, very rarely expected to even happen. And there's, like, a lot of men, up in here that, Yeah. Don't don't prescribe to to that, especially, like, young men.

Freya Graf:

So it's it's like, I know it's still misguided that, like, orgasm is the goal and the focus, Like, with you know, even if it is the woman, but it's, like, at least a little bit more evolved than, like, the boys I grew up with who, like, Probably didn't even fucking think that a female orgasm actually existed nor did it matter or take priority. It was all about, like, their pleasure And then just, like, getting their end in and busting a knot. It's just like a whole lot of Aussie slang. Sorry.

Manu:

You get the the the you you got some emotions there?

Freya Graf:

It's, it's an imp I feel like in my mind because I work with women, and I hear a lot about how their pleasure does not take priority, in a lot of, like, hetero kinda relationships. In my mind, at least that's like an improvement that, like, you were trained or conditioned to, like, care about the woman's orgasm, but then it's still just, like, It still sucks because it's just putting something on this pedestal. It's making it a goal. And then, of course, like, even, you know, the men that prescribed to that and they're like, She comes first. You know, I gotta make sure she has an orgasm. Most of the time, that's not because they're actually invested in her pleasure and well-being and they wanna create, like, this beautiful shared of orgasmic energy and intimacy, it's because their ego is attached to, like, whether or not they can make her come. And they think that to be a man and a good lover, they have to make her come. And so, like, their goal of making her come just puts all of this pressure on her and him and, And, you know, all these expectations on the situation.

Freya Graf:

And so, of course, that's just distracting us from, like, what the true purpose of lovemaking Should be, which is intimacy and connection and just pleasure rather than this goal of, like, alright. Like, she's gotta have an orgasm, then I'm gonna ejaculate and then sex done the thing, and we've ticked the boxes. You know?

Manu:

Yeah. Yeah. I I believe nowadays that to be good lover, And that goes for men and women, any gender. We need to be able To have make love or have sex, you want we wanna call it, without Having, an orgasm. Both. If we are able to stay on that without having an orgasm, We we're really we can we can we can say that we're in our in the way, in the path to be, like, great lovers. So if we detach from that need and that urge

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Manu:

And this goes also for women. So I hear you what you say, and You're right. It would be already enough. It will not enough, but it would be already already good if they these people you're referring to, This kind of man they're referring to, they could at least wait if it's about their orgasm, at least have a more, Like empathetic mentality or, like, another more altruistic approach? Yes. That's and it's no. As you said, And and from there, there is so much to grow because it was like this also for me before. I totally I can relate with this man, like, what you're talking about. At the same time, I have a question for you.

Manu:

Do these women that you're talking about Are talking to their partner in a way that they let him understand what's not really working for them. Because I had to wait many years before, and many different encounters before a woman told me that.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Well, I mean, most of the time, no. They don't have the confidence or the communication skills. They don't realize that they can just Have a conversation because it's so charged. It's like anything to do with sexuality is often, especially with people that Come to work with me is often incredibly confronting and triggering. You know, there might be trauma there. There might be Negative conditioning and a lot of shame. And, like, a really common one is, like, the women have tried to bring it up, And the men don't know how to receive that feedback or guidance around, you know, what the woman needs more of.

Freya Graf:

And so and that triggers all of their Inferiority and their insecurities and they're like you know, it dents their ego. It bruises their kind of view of themselves as this Stud in the sack and it's, like, you know, amazing masculine lover. And so they they don't handle That conversation well, and and so the woman's like, oh, shit. I'm not bringing that up again because it can go, you know, one of 2 ways when people react badly to a woman being like, hey. By the way, like, I'd like to watch this differently because I'm not really enjoying this. Mhmm. They either get really fucking Sad, sore feelings, and they can't get an erection. They get really insecure.

Freya Graf:

Or they start being like, oh, well, you're too needy, and you're demanding too much, and you're broken, And it works for all the other women I've been with, and it must just be your pussy that's, like, not performing. It's not me, like, I'm a good lover. And so they get really defensive. And not always, but, like, that is a very common thing that I hear.

Manu:

Okay. I have a point here.

Freya Graf:

None of us have the skills.

Manu:

I have a point here because this is a discussion that I heard many times, and I like to When things get saved many times, in the same way, I like to challenge it with try to give a shift

Freya Graf:

I definitely have

Manu:

to do that. Okay.

Freya Graf:

Go for it.

Manu:

Yeah. No. I'm not one who really played David's advocate in this case, because I'm not want to defend Man, the category of man, that's, like, that's not the point.

Freya Graf:

Reframe it reframe it for me.

Manu:

So how I wanna reframe it is that There are in in the way you are framing it, you are assuming that The woman, you are I think I I hearing that you are implicitly assuming that the woman is handling that communication in the best way possible. Her.

Freya Graf:

Oh, no. No. No. No. No. No. No. I'm not.

Freya Graf:

That's why I'm saying the women don't have the communication skills either. Like, So

Manu:

exactly. So we need we need to get to to talk about that and not necessarily just me and you, like, in general. More talk I mean, less blame on men. Okay. Point out this. This is very important to keep point out what you say and it's important, But it's important to see that be cautious on not developing a blaming culture of, All men can't handle that, and that's why women and then we go again in the triang in the dualism of victim, waiter and and the man say, no, you're it's you the no. Let's let's assume that nobody's here is able to Bring that subject in the best way possible because even there, we are lacking education on communication. And this is, I think, one of the most overlooked thing when we talk about intimacy because we talk a lot about education of our bodies, our pleasure, And, bound communicate boundaries, but what about communicate in general? There is a big, a big void connected to intimacy.

Manu:

That's what I'm hearing. Because either we talk about communication in general, like, Not connect to intimacy, either like specific things that we need to learn to connect to intimacy, which again, it's boundaries And, maybe desires, pleasures, fears, but how to actually handle that conversation, how to actually hold that space, Not many people are giving too much importance to that. And are you referring to tools like nonviolent communication, for example? Like bringing on violent communication in the sex talk or intimacy. Right? It can be can people just learning how to use these tools Can have a a revolution just a way because how many times I witness myself but also in my family from a kid, Like my mother, say something to my father in a way, and he got triggered. And she was or vice versa. And then looks like, oh, they they have a different character. But nowadays, when I hear that, it's like, No. They just don't have the tools how to proper ask even a question.

Manu:

Just because someone thinks that has the right to ask a question to show feels in the right position doesn't make them, doesn't make them the best communicator possible by default. Often is the opposite because in the case, for example, we can mention a case, where a woman feels like, okay, you know, I got it. I got it. I got it. Now I need to tell him the truth, but that truth comes if she's not aware, comes with such an emotional charge, which but even if she's if she can say, yeah, but I said it in most nice sweet way possible, like, Hey, hon. But even just your beliefs that are behind can give a different energy To the words you are communicating in that moment, it's not only the word you're using and the tone you're using, it's actually The beliefs you have around that talk. So if you're already blaming the man And you're trying to convey convey a discussion that Seems like you're not blaming him, but if inside you you are blaming him, that will be perceived by the other person even if you're using the most beautiful words and compliments. And this already

Freya Graf:

Totally.

Manu:

It's it's a bad beginning for this for any

Freya Graf:

Oh my god. Like, we're completely set up for failure because, You know, we all struggle and don't have, like, the best communication skills in general. We also struggle with, like, Sex and shame and conditioning and lack of education. And then when you bring communication and sex together, that is just Such a disaster zone for most people. Like, it's already so triggering, so charged, such a delicate area, You know, attached to so many insecurities and, you know, when you then try to get someone to actually approach a conversation around that With all of that already there in the background, and they don't even have communication or conflict resolution skills or any of that. It's like, It's the title shit show, and, I mean, I feel like I'm a broken record with with this on the podcast. Probably, like, every 2nd episode, I'm harping on about, like, Communication is literally the most important thing. The key is what I

Manu:

conditioning sex.

Freya Graf:

Find myself, like, yeah, I just I I literally like, people come to me to work on all sorts of other stuff. We always come back to communication because when I distill it down to, like, the biggest Thing that would actually shift the needle for whatever they're struggling with, it's generally communication based or that that's like a big kinda linchpin That will help everything else, and I've got, like, a workshop on that. I put in a module in my online course. Like, communication is the fucking thing, And communication about sex and in sex, oh my god. It's so important, and it's just so difficult for, Like, almost everyone you speak to, like, it's amazing how challenging people find it. But it makes sense. Right? Like, of course, it is. Like, with With, like, the complete lack of education, lack of healthy modeling of that being done, like, we don't see We see, like, very, very, very unhealthy examples of this in, like, TV shows and movies and from our parents.

Freya Graf:

Like, Where do we see that being done well? Like, fucking nowhere. And then there's all the subconscious beliefs that we all have from our conditioning like you were talking about. So, like, Yeah. We're up against a lot in that department. I definitely don't think, like, you know, 1 gender is worse at it than others. Like, we're all we're all Struggling and have our own set sets of challenges with that. And often, like, the the thing that's such a shame because I work a lot with, like, hetero people In heterosexual relationships is like the the man and the woman have, their own set of difficulties and challenges and insecurities, And they're, like, perfectly matched to trigger one another in, like, the worst way. So, like, they've got, like, opposite Kinda yeah.

Freya Graf:

It's just it's it's pretty But

Manu:

that's how it goes.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Manu:

That's how I'm gonna be off

Freya Graf:

the bat.

Manu:

Attraction goes.

Freya Graf:

Excuse Excuse the interruption, my loves, but I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and 5 star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, It's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people it can help. Reviews and ratings help me carry favor with the algorithmic gods and get suggested to other listeners to Check out. Plus, they make me feel really good and appreciated as I continue to pour my heart and soul into creating this baby for you. And I promise I don't maz over them or anything. I mostly just tuck them away for a rainy day when I'm filled with self doubt and existential dread about being self employed, which is Fairly frequently. So you see, leaving a review really does make a difference, and it's an easy, little act Support that you can take in just a minute or 2 by either going to Spotify and leaving 5 stars for the show or writing a written review and leaving 5 stars over on Apple Podcasts. Choose your poison.

Freya Graf:

Or if you're a real overachiever, you could do both. Woah now. If you are writing a review, though, Just be sure to only use g rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored, and your review won't actually show up. Lame. Anyway oh, oh, what was that? Are you gonna go do it right now while I wait? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No.

Freya Graf:

That's a great idea. May as well just quickly click that 5 star button before we get on with it and, you know, like, forget about it and get on with your day. Oh, I'm hearing them roll in. I'm hearing those 5 stars.

Freya Graf:

Oh my god. I made myself cringe. Anyway, Thank

Freya Graf:

you much, Lee. You're a total gem, and I'll let you get back to the episode now. So let's talk about

Freya Graf:

the forms of intimacy Because, yeah, we've been quite, like, vague, I suppose, talking about it as, like, a A concept and and the energy, like, the kind of intimacy. But I love to talk about, like, ways that we can express intimacy, You know, touch, eye contact, verbal. So, like, through communicating that fosters more safety and intimacy. Like, what are some really great Ways if people are like, oh, I don't know how to, like, be more intimate with my partner or open up a space of more intimacy. Like, what are some steps? What are some things I can do? Like, What do you reckon your favorite ways to cultivate intimacy with a partner?

Manu:

Yeah. There are different tools. Right? And one that came now straight away was an experience I proposed to was not like a romantic partner, but a partner I'm very intimate with and, I mean, somehow, I had his history, so it was not occasional, and and we had also sexual history, and what I we both perceive as authentic So just to give a little frame. And so it came to me, like, she was coming to visit me from another country, and I asked I have this idea. Let's when we meet because we will meet only we we met only We had to meet only for, like, 4, 5 days. From the moment I come to pick you up, We are in silence. We don't talk. We stay with each other in the car, in the house, and we set a frame Like this.

Manu:

Like because it was winter, it was snowy, and so we know we were inside the house for 3 days, The the 2 of us, and that's it. Isolated in nature. Say, we the morning, we wake up, And we do our own routines. And at 10 AM, we set up a space Where we meditate together for 20, 30 minutes. After that meditation, we open up the sharing and we can talk. And we wait, no, for each other like 1 share, finish the other person share, finish, and then we can answer to each other. And when we feel that the sharing is enough without going in chat, chitchat, but sharing from an emotional point of view how I'm feeling, what's, know what's moving inside me without going too much in stories when that is finished we go back in silence And we keep leaving this shared space in silence and let our bodies communicate with each other. I think here, there is a big tool for approaching teams is create space, Deliberate space of silence, nonverbal spaces because the words are Talking again about communication, it's not only about verbal communication.

Manu:

And we we are we cover so much Our communication with words, we forget even are we able to stay comfortably in silence with this person. Let's begin from really basic things. Are we able to eat in silence and Looking each other in the eyes in silence, smiling to each other in silence, touch, Dare to initiate a touch, sweet, kind touch in silence. And without thinking that, oh, but now I feel the urge, for example, to have a sexual contact should they talk about But trust that maybe will not happen or maybe it will happen, but trust that without words, things will go in their own way and allow yourself also, yeah, to to mistake in front of the other person. And but, again, a nonverbal space can be a super powerful tool. And if we feel that we are not comfortable with that, well, we already get the answer. It means we need to work on it. So there you have a space to keep Trying to reproduce maybe it doesn't have to be 3, 4 days in that way as I did, but it can be even half a day.

Manu:

Can be a whole day. And not to be just in your own mind space while you're in science, but sharing the space, Sharing the touch, sharing the cuddle, be being present, of course, because many people think silence then Just it's about not having words. But you can be in silence and not be in silence because you're having so much words in the mind going on and thinking about Totally different things not related to the moment. So what I'm saying here is a mindful approach, Right? To intimacy. Meditation is a good, tool to, to train on this by ourselves, but ultimately, it's bringing that meditation with open eyes in movement with another person. And that is wow. Can be a powerful, intimate field.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Beautiful. I guess, like, I work with a lot of people that, you know, in marriages, they have kids, they have busy lives, they don't necessarily have The luxury or they're they're not they're not in that place where they're, like, gonna, you know, have these big kind of silent periods and meditate together and all these beautiful Stuff, like, obviously amazing, but I usually like to also try to offer, like, very, very easy, accessible little kind of, like, tips or suggest People that are just like, look, that's not that's not within my reach. That's not really where I'm at right now. And a lot of the people I work with Say things like, there's not a lot of intimacy in the marriage, and it's been it's been squeezed out more and more because When, you know, he, for example, like, comes up to me and, like, gives me a little squeeze or a kiss or something or if we're in bed and, like, he Start touching me. Like, I immediately feel as though, oh, shit. Like, if I engage in this, it's it's gonna move towards sex, and he's only touching me or teasing me because he wants sex. And because, you know, there's this, you know, very commonly, like, sex and intimacy are are conflated, like I was mentioning, like, there's this expectation there, and that puts her off because She's like, oh, I wouldn't mind a bit of affection and intimacy, but I can't be fucked having sex right now.

Freya Graf:

And so I'm not even gonna engage and I'm gonna kinda shut that down. And so, You know, she will shut down that bid for intimacy, and then it it becomes less and less frequent. So I'm just wondering, like, what are some really practical tips For people in this sort of situation where they can explore or just just tap into, like, little moments of intimacy throughout their busy day and, you know, while they're being parents and working and whatever, that that, yeah, create more safety connection intimacy without, I guess the expectation. Yeah.

Manu:

Yeah. The especially at the end of the day for the kind of for the kind of which is a common person, right, all the day out and then finally meet your partner at the end of the day if especially if they live together. That it's a very important thing. Like, 1 big tip I can give to men specifically, and but this, on the other hand, touch also women. It's like, first, have your own when you come back home, have your own cave time. Doesn't have to be big. That can be 30 minutes, and communicate this to your partner giving The specific minutes you will have your cave time means stick to that. It means, like, if you say 30 minutes, you show up after 30 minutes.

Manu:

And say to your partner, I need hey, dear, honey, whatever you wanna call her, and I need now some time for me In order to one moment decompress and be more present with you afterward in order to be better present. So this is it it sounds not connected. But we come back again to the origin of intimacy from within have your own intimate time and that decompression moment that give time can be also really dumb thing something in television scrolling read a book Meditate, relaxing, take a shower, whatever you want, but it's just you with yourself to just Turn off the mind. Go in the zero mind that many men really are craving. When you come back from there, Go back to your partner and hold there's the space for her to ask her questions about her day and active listening without Comments, but maybe with more questions and how that made you feel. How was your day? How was other and really listen instead of uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Manu:

Yeah. Uh-huh. And Thinking about, oh, what I wonder what my soccer team did, scored last night. No. No. No. Active listening And show that you're listening by even making more questions, like, and how that about emotions and how that made you feel And how what happened after and so help her to liberate through talk her emotions. Now that may sound like cliche of the man in the cave and the woman that needs to talk, but for the most part of the couples, it works.

Manu:

And and while you hold that space, you may want to touch her in a non sexual way just you know, giving maybe gently caressing her leg or a little Pressure in her inner feet, like, give her touch touch, like nonsexual touch, like, your present hand, nice pressure, Touching while asking the question. Oh, it can be so nice for her and so nice for you because you will feel that she will be open, open, open and more. And from there, then you can also just keep, like, more Focus also when when when she's, she's done with her sharing, like, touching keep touching her in a nonsexual way No. Around the body, not in the genitals like the shoulders, the neck, which someone can think cuddling, but doesn't have to be even a cuddling, even kind of Not neither on professional massage, but touch, communicate through touch. And just these Few things already are setting this space for her feeling that okay, he's not asking for sex. It's just pro it's like it's not taking through his touch. It's giving Presence is giving comfort and he's giving his presence. And the woman can feel, the partner can feel open open more.

Manu:

And eventually, this whatever can lead if there is the feeling to To intimacy sexual intimacy or not, but already, she there can be so much satisfaction from both of the partners there. And this is a strong foundation for intimacy, especially if you don't hear on a daily basis.

Freya Graf:

Totally. Totally. Yeah. I love that. Like, touch, so important. I think just like, you know, you're saying active listening, I think just Presence. Like someone just giving you the gift of their total focus and presence and giving you eye contact and really, like, their whole body actively showing that they're listening and they're present with you. And then if you add some touch into that as well and some, like, thoughtful questions that show you care, like, fuck me.

Freya Graf:

That's That's the recipe, you know. So I'm wondering, like, because you work predominantly with men, And this can be a challenging area for men to kind of, I guess, feel safe and comfortable to To, you know, express or receive intimacy, especially if it's nonsexual intimacy, what can a partner of a man do to create a more conducive environment for the man to feel inspired to be more consciously intimate?

Manu:

What kind of partnering again? I didn't get very well your quest.

Freya Graf:

So, like, if if you're a partner of a man, What can you do as the partner of the man to create an environment where that man feels more inspired to be intimate and be really conscious about that? Are there, like, things that create a a a sort of, like, encouraging space?

Manu:

Yeah. Yeah. I think already to to have a talk like, To encourage him to have some, already to disengage from the judgment against him is a big thing. No. Because some, women can feel like, oh, but I'm not judging. But yeah. But whatever. But really be honest, you can find Any speck of judgment you have about his behavior and how he should be any any for any will to try to correct him Already refrain from that and see that this is you telling yourself that maybe you need to correct something Because it's the other way around, always.

Manu:

Like, if you like Byron Katie says, if you think the other person needs to do the work, it means you need to do the work. And so already disengaging from that from that perspective, it's a big favor that you that you can do. And on a practical level, encouraging encouraging him, yeah, to take It's time and but also to, yeah, to open a dialogue, a very I do believe in direct, you know, communication and open a dialogue if you feel without letting him feel that he's Wrong on anything and taking responsibility for even your own limits, But open, just a dialogue, clear communication. There is no need to have a big tricks or Hacks on how can I make him go in that direction? It's already starting wrong if you want to make him go in a direction. Just open a dialogue And just try to understand from a most harmful way how to communicate that and and stay say, hey, you know, I would like to talk about something and And always refer not as because I think that I will feel better if you do this. It's like, I think that both we can grow and have both a better intimacy and both you know have more pleasure not Referring to the shortcoming of 1 because that's never like that. Even when it looks obvious, it's never like that. So we need to consider always that we are into even when it's the most the most wrong attitude from The other person remember that you called that attitude in your life somehow.

Manu:

Get out of victim mentality And and neither also self blame. I'm not even preaching to blame yourself, but just be, like, okay, we are in 2. If he's doing like this, It's based probably something in me that is calling for that. And if I'm not aware of it, I will keep calling that in my life With him or with someone else? So I think this is, So sorry if you expect, like a hack, a tip practical, but I think this is a big, big thing that already can shift so much just shift that mind in that way. It can help the other person so much.

Freya Graf:

Totally. Thank you for that. So I'd love to do the segment TMI. Do you have a TMI story to share with us that might be usually considered a bit too much information for public conversation?

Manu:

Oh, yeah. Man. This, there are a couple, but, that can also So nowadays, people say trigger warning. Right? So that can be

Freya Graf:

Yep. Totally.

Manu:

Triggering that's here is a trigger warning for men that are And yeah. I I'm I'm I'm thinking which one I pick. But okay. I go for the the yeah. Okay. So there was a moment, When I was, with a pre with with a partner in the past where I was starting to exploring Sex story in a more conscious way. And so, it came to me that, yeah, they were off inviting me to this play party. And for the people who don't know what a play party is, it's a setting where a group of people, can be few people to I don't know, whatever.

Manu:

It can be up to few tens of people, but there are no necessary limits, decide to together Explore sexuality in the most open and consensual and safe way possible. And to do that, there are all sort of even no exercise warming up, and there is a lots of focus on boundaries and, Safe sex and in in be able so to say no, yes, and to be able to, whatever, express your own desires. So I went in one of this setting with my partner, and we were both open to together to explore, other people eventually eventually. And I knew she she had the desire because she told me To see us in interaction with a friend of her, which was a man, which I knew, And I liked him as a person, a really beautiful person, beautiful soul, but was a man. And Very feminine man in my eyes, but still a man. And she would she expressed a desire to to see the 3 of us in interaction together. And he was like, I don't think I don't I don't know. I don't know.

Manu:

Let's see. I didn't want to say no because I I wanted also you know, I was in this moment. Okay. I want To be as open as possible. And there was a part when we wanted also to try to impress her. So when Inside me, I I felt like, no, this will not happen. But then there was a moment where finally, somehow, We were in the middle of this room with people around, and we were I was making out with my partner, and And we were in in luxury, and she was in a beautiful, yeah, underwear. And and he came under invitation from her, and I was okay with that.

Manu:

And we start to, like, touch each other nicely. He start to make out with her after my consent, and and then she came down on me While me and Dim, we were, like, touching, like, each other's skin, not the genitals, just to be, more explicit. She came down with me, and I was having pleasure from her. And then he observing her, he asked me, Manu, do you mind if I join your partner on giving you pleasure? There, It's like one of this moment in the movies when there is this cut this edit, like, everything froze. And, and I hear, like, the word froze, and I hear myself talking like, okay, man. Here, there is a fork. Yeah. There is a fork in your life.

Manu:

You either say no, and your life keep As smoothly as before, you don't put in question anything about your own sexuality or things, and And you say no, and you are in a setting where you say no, everything, it's okay, and we will receive the no. So it's okay. On the other hand, You can say yes and try something with that We'll provide you another experience

Freya Graf:

and

Manu:

with the best person possible because you like this person, you love this person. And you know, it's not about attraction. And you will see what's what's coming up to you. And, you know, you will do that.

Freya Graf:

Just let him suck your dick. Come on.

Manu:

I look at him. I say, dear, you are, like, You're the best person who could do that because, like, because I love you. So yeah. Please go on. And he went down, and it was fun. It was fun, and it I had a moment of embarrassed that went away immediately feeling how turned on my partner was, And and that turned me on, seeing her turn on. And in that moment, she came up And she always put in my eyes for the 1st time, I love you. And it was such a big moment.

Manu:

So And after we laughed about it, it was fun. And and and that's it. Nothing nothing more happened. Nothing more with this person, but but He's a friend. And so, yeah, we shared about it. We it was fun. And and at the end, I had, Yeah. The beautiful feeling because I felt it didn't challenge my, homophobic Beliefs because that were already elaborated before, so I didn't feel challenged by masculinity.

Manu:

Actually, For some reason that may seems may sound weird to people, it actually reinforce My muscular identity, not by saying, oh, okay. I don't like this. No. No. Because I even enjoy it. But just the fact to allow myself to open With my partner to such a very, for me, in that moment, extreme pain, it and feel then No judgment for nobody. Not my partner. Nobody.

Manu:

And my partner for me was like, wow. So sexy. Such a beautiful, powerful woman. And if she can be turned on by that, wow. So I I still feel a man, you know. And, yeah, I didn't feel Unsecure at all.

Freya Graf:

Right. Yeah. Amazing. Good on you. I love that. That's, That reminds me of an episode I did with an ex partner of mine a while back. The episode's called I'm Straight and I Sucked the Dick Because he, Matt, I'm still really good friends with him. He is pretty pretty bloody straight.

Freya Graf:

Like, I I mean, you might argue, like, Look. If you're fucking sucking dick, then there's gotta be some queerness there. But, like, I would say he's, like, very straight. He's just always been kinda like, you know what? I mean, I'm curious. I feel like I'd be good at sucking a dick because I've got 1. Like, may as well give it a go. And he's just so comfortable within himself and his kind of, like, sexuality that He's very open minded. And so he, he, yeah, he found someone to explore that with, and he Came on the podcast and talked all about it and, like, how that process was for him.

Freya Graf:

And it's a really kinda similar feeling, I think, that you're describing of, like, it's almost reinforcing Your masculinity and your sexuality and, like, your comfort with everything because you know that you can enjoy an experience like that without it, you know, shaking your, Yeah. You're kind of, like, I guess, how how you feel in your sexuality, and it triggering some kind of latent homophobia. You know? So I think it's it must be so liberating, and feel very empowering. And That's obviously what your partner found incredibly sexy was that you were open, and it didn't it didn't, you know, need to bring up any, like, Oh, like, no homo, though. Like, I'm

Freya Graf:

not gay, though. Like, any of that kind

Freya Graf:

of stuff. Yeah. So, yeah, highly recommend people go listen to I'm straight and I suck a dick. It's a great episode.

Freya Graf:

Hey. Me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it 5 stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I wanna mention that you Can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote, tee, togs. Yep. You heard that right. I even have labia lounge bathers. Or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So, if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my Buy Me A Coffee donation page, which is actually called buy me a soy chai latte because I'll be the 1st to admit, I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that.

Freya Graf:

And, yes, That is my coffee order. You can do a one soft donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as 3 fat ones a month. And I also have a Sunroom profile over on the Sunroom app as I've mentioned, and I also offer 1 on 1 coaching Ching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way. So every bit helps because it ain't cheap to put out a sweet podcast, into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be undyingly grateful if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself. Salty. And, I'll pop the links in the show notes.

Freya Graf:

Thank you. Later.

Freya Graf:

I'm just looking at the time. I've gone way over. I've gotta rush off because I have To get ready for a client. But, you've got some courses that you're giving listeners 25% Off. I'm gonna put the links to those in the show notes and in the Labia Lounge Facebook group. Is there anything you wanna leave us with or plug before we wrap up this episode?

Manu:

Yeah. Thank you, Freya. I think it's it's great to discuss with you. Many things are coming. And If I will, I wanna leave these episodes, well, just saying the the most important we can do for ourselves, And then it goes for any domain of life and it touched particularly also intimacy, sexuality is in work, you know, in a heartful presence, Work in a heartful presence. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful. Amazing.

Freya Graf:

Alright, my love. Well, thank you so much. Chat with you soon.

Manu:

Bye, Andrea.

Freya Graf:

And that's it, darling hearts. Thank you for stopping by the labia lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right

Freya Graf:

where you left it, just waiting for

Freya Graf:

you to sink back in for some more double l action next time. And in the meantime, if you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode, or leave a review on iTunes, then you can pat yourself on the snatch because That, my dear, is a downright act of sex positive feminist activism, and you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, Demystify and destigmatize with this here podcast. Also, I'm always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered, Or guest suggestions. So feel free to get in touch via my website atfrerograph.com or say hi over on Insta. My handle is freya_graf_ymt, and I seriously hope you're following me on there because damn, we have fun. We have fun. Anyway, later labial legends. I'll see you next time.