Cancer and Sex - Rediscovering Your Body and Sensuality After a Diagnosis
Freya Graf:
This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets. Welcome. Welcome, my lovely lumps, or should I say lovely labs? I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge. We're gonna yarn about all things sexuality, womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health, and everything in between. Your legs. Oh, can't help myself. Anyway, we're gonna have vag-loads of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up.
Freya Graf:
You're about to receive the sex ed that you never had and have a bloody good laugh while you're at it. Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in Naarm, and I pay respect to their elders past, present, and emerging. Now, if you're all ready, let's flap and do this. Oh my god. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. It's my podcast. I'm leaving it in.
Freya Graf:
Hey, labial lounges. Welcome back. Today, we're covering a really important topic that I haven't spoken on the podcast about before, and that is sex after a cancer diagnosis and how to rediscover your body and your pleasure as a survivor of cancer. So I've got Tara Galliano on today to chat about her experience with this personally as well as her experience supporting others through this challenge. And Tara is a certified sex therapist and author who's worked with women and couples for over 2 decades to get their sexy back. In her book, rediscovering my body, Tara teaches us how to show up for pleasure. Through reconnecting with her body, Tara was able to understand what was right and pleasurable for her, how best to proceed from this wisdom, and most importantly, how to teach these valuable lessons to others so that they too can form their lives and reclaim their sensuality. Welcome, Tara.
Tara:
Thanks so much, Freya. It's a pleasure to be here with you.
Freya Graf:
Did I pronounce your name correctly?
Tara:
You did. Did I pronounce your name correctly?
Freya Graf:
You totally did. I just, I always forget to check with people, and I was like, oh my goodness. Anyway, alright. Beautiful. Well, I'm so wrapped to have you here. I guess probably the first port of call, if you feel comfortable, would be to share a little bit about your journey with cancer and sex, and why you're now so passionate about helping others to rediscover their bodies after cancer.
Tara:
Thank you. Thank you. And so just to clarify, my journey is actually not a personal journey for I've been had the good fortune of not having cancer in this body at this lifetime. Oh. Yeah. My
Freya Graf:
bad. I just assumed.
Tara:
And so many people do. So many people do, and I feel very fortunate that that has not been the case. I think more of what has been the case, I was the right person at the right time and the right place. I had a colleague who was seeing many women with cancer diagnosis in individual therapy. And what I loved at the time was to see groups of women, and I wanted to see groups of women who had a cancer diagnosis and were struggling with their sexuality. And then I was introduced to a nurse navigator who said, I have so many women with so many questions about how to proceed in that area in their lives, how to connect with their partners, how to have more intimacy, how to have more pleasure, because it it's oftentimes seen that their lives will stop sexually at that moment. And, yeah. I didn't want that to be the case because actually, right, sexual energy is this powerful life force energy that actually can help with healing and in the healing process.
Tara:
And so yeah. This nurse navigator, Nana Bo, and I collaborated together and I began coming to these support groups and women were asking lots of questions about what was, yeah, what was a prognosis for their sexual lives? What what is the pathway forward based upon their particular type of cancer? And then this class that I began to teach called rediscovering my body was born. And and that is probably both my personal and my professional story. And and what I loved about being in that group of women is that there was there's no bullshit. Right? Just like dropping in to the essence of what is most important because they were on the precipice of a life and death experience, and that they wanted to know the truth of what could be. And I I really admire their color their courage and their, like, their Amazonian quality of moving things forward in a way that was respectful and honoring of themselves, their relationship, and how they wanted to show up, triumphantly in pleasure.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Wow. Amazing. So I'd love to chat first, I suppose, about, the, you know, the sort of initial stages of diagnosis and then actually grappling with with having cancer. And then before we wrap up, moving to post cancer once you're in remission, once that's kind of behind you, how we can kind of get our get our mojo back. So how does the experience of being diagnosed with cancer impact our relationship to our bodies and our pleasure? And, you know, obviously I mean, there's some no brainer things about this, but I'm sure there's some little known impact that people might not realize or think about until they're there, you know, with their relationship, their intimacy, their body image, trust in their bodies. I'd love you to chat a little bit about, yeah, how being diagnosed with cancer has an impact.
Tara:
Yeah. And so I would say it's huge. And and what I would say that for most of the women, what they would share is that there was oftentimes this sense of shutdown in their body and disconnection. Oftentimes because there was a deep sense of betrayal. Like this is this is my body and all of a sudden it is not doing what I want it to do and being in the way that I want it to be. And so this I would say, this rift or this chasm is created for the woman with her body and her relationship with the body, and that's real. And also then, I would say, fortified through the process of the medical system where oftentimes women feel objectified, and they feel like they're a science experiment and they feel like their needs, their desires, their wants are not heard or invited into the conversation. And I I feel like that's a really important piece because as a professional, I have the power.
Tara:
Right? Because I have the expertise to begin to invite women into the conversation and to allow them to feel like that's important. And I think when medical professor professionals are meeting with women, particularly around cancer care, there's not enough time. Right? Talking about sex and sexuality isn't built into the formula for reimbursement. And oftentimes, they may not have their own comfort around speaking about those issues. And so to bypass it, and a lot of times, just seems easiest to do. And then women don't feel like they can voice their questions. And when they do, it's oftentimes with someone who's doing hands on work with them, like a physical therapist or massage therapist, and they feel some comfort around saying, hey. What can I expect sexually, around this diagnosis or treatment? And then they begin the conversation.
Tara:
And so I'd say this really this deep disconnection for a woman with her body and then, again, it's fortified throughout the medical process is is what I see.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. I really resonate with what you said about this deep feeling of betrayal because that, you know, can happen to different degrees with other sorts of health struggles. You know, I've definitely felt that personally many years ago when I was just going through this really vicious cycle of, gut health issues leading into thrush and b v and just pretty much every month cycling back and forth between thrush and b v, and sex always being painful, my vagina always being inflamed and unhappy. And it just went on for years. And I remember just feeling like, fuck you, body. Like, I felt like I was a failure as a woman, as a girlfriend. I felt like I, just couldn't trust my body and that we were pitted against one another. And that was just for thrash.
Freya Graf:
You know? That wasn't even cancer. Like, these cells literally, like, multiplying in your body that are trying to kill you. Like, so that sense of, like, my body letting me down, not doing what it's supposed to do, not knowing how to get it back on side and and and cultivate a relationship of, like, love and trust again. I hear that a lot, you know, with women with endometriosis, with vaginismus, with anything, you know, that they're struggling with in terms of their physical health, that sense that their body has abandoned them or betrayed them is very palpable and, of course, then disconnects self connection and connection to our body and in self connection and connection to our body and embodiment, you know, being able to be very present inside our body with our physical sensations in our current state is so important for good sex. So I imagine that really having, you know, this ripple effect in the bedroom as well. Am I right?
Tara:
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And I would say that, yeah, pleasure is oftentimes the furthest thing from a woman's mind when she has a cancer diagnosis. It's more about survival and so there's a shutdown of a lot of the systems because they're focused on being alive. Right? Coming back to life. And the sense of betrayal in the body is a very powerful one. So I I worked, particularly in Boulder, Colorado, which is a very health conscious community.
Tara:
And so I would see women who were triathletes or yoga instructors. So people who had spent a a lifetime really focused on their physical well-being. And so then to have their bodies, yeah, come into cancer. It it was it felt like a a more extreme version of
Freya Graf:
Yeah.
Tara:
That betrayal because they had done so much focus on their well-being.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. I bet. Mhmm. Oh, I can't even imagine that, yeah, that feeling to throw your entire world into disarray. Like, just turn everything upside down. So is it important, like because, I mean, when I think about, you know, if I'm feeling unwell, if I'm even if I'm just stressed, you know, like you said, pleasure, sex, last thing from my mind, like, my sort of desire to pursue sex or to engage in in any kind of sexual energy just goes out the window for me, and that's not the case for everyone. Like, some people cope with stress by, you know, having more sex or masturbation. But, yeah, for me, when I'm especially if I'm sick and I'm not feeling very good in my body, like, that's the first thing to go for me.
Freya Graf:
If I'm in survival mode, that is not a priority. So would you say, like, it's important to stay in touch with your pleasure and sexuality while going through treatment? And, like, how do you even do this? Like, when things are so challenging and they feel so awful in their physical bodies and so stressed in, you know, this survival mode that they found themselves in.
Tara:
Yeah. Yeah. And and I would also say that it, impacts a woman's body image or her sense of self and her sexiness and her confidence. And so yeah. So certainly not wanting to be sexy sounds like it makes sense. Right? There's all these reasons why one would not wanna be in their body and feel pleasure. And and and I I really think that it's most important for the women to both honor where they're at and to know that pleasure is actually beneficial and will cause or assist in the healing process, with the release of endorphins, increased circulation, more more. I mean, all of the functions of the body are actually, I would say, accelerated and amplified in terms of health with orgasmic experiences, with states of ecstasy.
Tara:
And even though it feels antithetical to the experience, the opportunity is there that one could actually feel better. And and I think that's kind of a difficult juxtaposition. So it's kind of the paradox of of can I actually reach for that or be in that? And I think that it's great to know that in terms of information, and then to actually reach for it is is difficult, and to know the challenges in that. And it's not to reach for that and deny the current experience and the state of the physiology because sometimes that's primary. Right? That needs to be acknowledged and honored. So I'd say that it is a both and. And then the other layer is the relationship dynamic, which also changes what I've seen over the course of a cancer diagnosis. So oftentimes, the women who had partners throughout the process of cancer, their partner would actually be their caregiver.
Tara:
And they would tend to the woman and very lovingly, and then feel like they didn't want to place their desires on her or make any requests or make any demands or have any expectations. And so then there for them, that the caregiver there was a complete shutdown of their sexual desire and then also sexual connection, and then there was a stuckness. And then the woman, who may not have already been feeling attractive, felt less attractive because she's saying, well, now my partner is not even desiring me. They're not even making any overtures, and there's this chasm now between the 2 of us, and how do we begin to bridge that? And so each person is in their own, I would say, isolated experience, and the caregiver is trying to be respectful, and the woman is trying to figure out, well, why is everything placed upon me that I need to reach out to be sexually connected? And and then this deeper entrenchment of this dynamic, And it becomes quite painful, I would say, for a lot of couples.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. That was actually gonna be my next question was, you know, how it changes the dynamic in couples when one has to become the caregiver. And it, of course, that influences the way they feel about sex. And it's even, you know, it even happens maybe to a lesser degree when a woman has a baby. Often they kinda complain that, you know, they don't obviously don't feel sexy, and then their partner's treating them like a Faberge egg and, like, not wanting to, you know but then the flip side of that is, like, if their partner is kind of initiating sex or in any way putting any pressure on intimacy before the woman's ready, then that also feels like, what the fuck? That's way too much. How are you kidding me right now? Imagine, you know, in in, like, someone's getting, like, chemo and they're, like, nauseous and feeling horrific, like, yeah, they don't wanna be pestered for sex, but they also do wanna feel desired and, you know, like, attractive to their partner. And they they don't wanna just completely lose that entire side of themselves and that part of their relationship because, obviously, sex and intimacy can bring so much closeness that really, like, nourishes a relationship to get it through the really hard like, sometimes, you know, if there's if I'm working with clients and and it just sounds to me, like, they really need to fuck because, you know, this is sex and intimacy, not always, but can be such a powerful tool to bring about closer connection and actually just smooth over some of the situation, and how do you navigate that? What do you suggest for couples in this situation, and how do you navigate that? Hey, baby babes. Sorry to interrupt.
Freya Graf:
I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. There you'll find extra bits and bobs like freebies, behind the scenes, or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the podcast. They'll also be, hopefully, inspiring, thought provoking conversations and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a really supportive, educational, and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me and a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge group in Facebook, and I'll see you in there. And now back to the episode.
Tara:
Yeah. It's it is tricky and and oftentimes, what I would recommend is, like, kind of the slower set steps. I I like this idea of just just fuck. I feel like, okay. There's there's that. Right? And and then it really depends upon the cancer diagnosis as well. Yeah. It's often difficult, after surgery or some type of reconstruction.
Tara:
Or sometimes there's been drastic, alterations to the body where physical sex or physical penetration may not be the way that it once was. So for example, women with reproductive cancer or colorectal cancer, that it changes the structure of their their vagina. And so then how they experience penetrative sex is actually quite different. And so what I always recommend is the slower route of the connection of deeper intimacy and how then to be present with each other in simple and loving ways that are maybe different than the ways that they are in their mundane life. But that there's an intention set aside that they're going to be present and loving and deeply connected in that moment. And so sometimes, it's simple as lying next to each other or lying on top of each other naked, and that is the connection. So it's an elevated experience than the mundane, but it is fairly simple. There's not a lot of erotic energy or, yeah, sexual energy running between the people.
Tara:
Although there can be energetically, but at least not on the physical realm because there's so many, I would say, limitations or sensitivities that the body is experiencing at that time. And so I I encourage couple to do those things that are simple and easy. I remember one woman saying, she told me a story that she had had colorectal cancer cancer and that she had not had sex with her husband for a year and a half because the first time after treatment that they tried, it was so painful and humiliating that they decided, both of them, that they didn't want to try it again. And that it was so painful, they didn't even speak that that they didn't wanna try it again. They just didn't. And then a year and a half later, they saw the flyer for my class, and it was the husband who approached the woman. He said, I can't go because this is for women, but I really want you to go to this class. And so she attended the class.
Tara:
She went through the process. And at the end of the class, they went to, I think they went away to Estes Park in Colorado and had this wild wonderful weekend away where they gave themselves permission to be playful and creative and imaginative and exploratory. And just that amped up their sexual life in ways that they could not have even imagined, you know, a year and a half before. So I think, yeah, the mind is such a powerful organ for sex and for pleasure, and that it is often these simple ways that we just allow ourselves to and give ourselves permission to experience things that that is the biggest and most critical piece.
Freya Graf:
Yes. Absolutely. And that's such an important I mean, regardless of cancer diagnosis or no, this is, like, this is something I'm constantly trying to reframe for people. Like, we see sex as, like, in this very heteronormative, like, it is dick in vagina. Like, that is sex, and or it has to be it has to be, like, overtly erotic. There needs to be some sexual act happening for it to be sex. Yeah. It's just ridiculous.
Freya Graf:
Like, we need to take the pressure off that and off orgasm and off the genitals even. Like, you just need to get back to, like, well, why what do we enjoy about sex? What are some of the benefits that we get from it? It's connection. It's vulnerability. It's intimacy. It's like oxytocin and touch and eye contact and, you know, coregulation of, like, being it's we can get all of those things without dick and vagina. So I think it's really important to just, like, reframe yeah. Like, when when when I'm giving people homework, I'm like, please just take, like, penetrative sex off the table for a while or take orgasm, like, out of the equation. Like, if it happens accidentally, great.
Freya Graf:
But, like, the pressure and the expectation that is automatically there, especially in heterosexual relationships when it comes to sex, man, what a lady boner killer. Like, that's just not helpful, you know? So I love that you're just trying to help people find new creative imaginative ways to connect and enjoy intimacy and pleasure and potentially, you know, a little bit of touch and just that beautiful, like, coregulation of being in a space together and, breathing together or, yeah, letting your heart sync up and just looking at one another and energetically enjoying that. So special, so important, and so much more manageable, I imagine, like, after especially, like, this big journey with cancer, like, way more manageable than, like, trying to and it's the same after a woman has a baby, and she's like, oh, how long until I can, like, have penetrative sex? And it's like, who cares? Like, there's a bunch of other shit you can do in the lead up to that. Like, don't don't run before you can walk, babe.
Tara:
Yes. Yes. Well said. Yeah. I love that. Absolutely. Yeah.
Freya Graf:
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Tara:
And so yes. So a lot of similarities between what women experience on a regular basis and those extreme cases of having an experience of cancer and the and the steps are the same. So really dismissing and debunking these myths around what sex is and this linear progression that doesn't serve us and that there's it's so much more expansive. And so allowing oneself to have that experience. Yay.
Freya Graf:
Totally. I imagine that it's there's this interesting thing that happens where, like, there's almost a new kind of forced intimacy in that, like, you know, you have to be pretty freaking vulnerable to allow your partner to now see you in certain situations and, care for you. Like, that's so vulnerable allowing someone to care for you in all of these ways that yeah, I mean, just that increased reliance on or, like, dependence on partners, that would create new layers of closeness and intimacy in a way. But then on the other hand, it would maybe rob you of some other, ways that you used to feel kind of intimate or or sensual or empowered, because I guess it also when you're in the medical system in in, like, a hardcore way like this, it doesn't really feel like your body is even your own anymore a lot of the time. And, yeah, to allow a loved one to see you like that, to to really have to outsource so much of these basic day to day things that you used to do for yourself, like, that must be so confronting and challenging.
Tara:
Yeah. Yeah. And I would say and then add to that, like, this whole facing one's own mortality. Like, okay, what what is it that I want to live for the rest of my life and for how long is that? And so, really, this huge confrontation, I'd say, for a lot of women. And, yes, what I what I have been able to, I would say, surmise is that this deep, deep sense of self love that can emerge from that process. That when it does, allows one to have, humility and grace and ease, more ease with the process because it's so it can be so painful. Right? If we have expectations that we'd be something different than what we are in those moments. Yeah.
Tara:
It can be really excruciatingly painful. And so, this process of surrender, of letting go, of of really loving oneself exquisitely. So the self care is really important and this sense of acceptance is really important well. And then when I see that women are able to be with that with more grace. Right? It's difficult stuff. It's easy to say, but it's difficult stuff to experience. But when women have that ability to have more grace with that, then they can have more ease with their partner. And then there's an allowance of more intimacy because they're not so afraid to be seen as ugly or broken or less than.
Tara:
And none of those are pretty place for us to be, and yet, it is part of our humanity and our vulnerability and our frailties of the human existence that we have those experiences of I'm I'm not good enough or I don't feel good enough or I am ugly or I am broken or I am all of these things that I don't like.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's so beautifully said. I just oh my god. When I think about how I would be in a situation like that, I just think I would find it so incredibly hard to surrender and accept and so forth. Like, that is the fucking work. Like, that is the ultimate, you know. Like, most people find it hard enough to surrender and have, like, self love and compassion and acceptance just day to day.
Freya Graf:
Let's you know,
Tara:
like Yeah.
Freya Graf:
In this boss bitch culture, I just feel like it's getting trickier and trickier. So that is really the ultimate test, and what a huge achievement if if you can get to that place. Like, I mean, massive spiritual journey. Woah.
Tara:
Yes. Massive spiritual journey. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. And then, right, that's just on the personal front I find is then and then to invite a partner or allow a And those that have gone through it, I feel like are much stronger for the journey. And I also see where a lot of couples implode and explode from that experience because, well, one piece in terms of how I I am viewing them is through the sexual lens. And some people's sexual desires, sexual needs, sexual, attractions are not going to be met.
Tara:
And that becomes really frustrating, I would say, particularly for heterosexual couples when men are feeling like their needs are not being met or their turn ons aren't there any longer because a woman's image has changed, that it's it can be really painful because a woman is having her own experience of cancer and betrayal and the process of healing and then the added experience of
Freya Graf:
Oh my god.
Tara:
And it happens. Yes.
Freya Graf:
Oh, and, you know, or even, like, even attraction aside, the amount of pressure and stress that something like this puts on a relationship is enormous, and it is a bit of a make or break, I imagine. So, yeah, either it makes you stronger and you survive it and you become closer because of that shared experience, or it does, yeah, it does break up the relationship because it can't handle that amount of pressure and change and yeah. I mean, so so so tough.
Tara:
Yeah. I mean, and I'd I'd say it's also like, it is like this crucible for the woman as well because all things are being compounded together in that, what I have seen when women decide to take the class, they have already gotten to this level of depletion where they feel like I've depleted all the financial resources, the emotional resources, the social resources, and I'm I'm finally feeling well enough where I can maybe consider go back to work, where I can be a productive individual. And the thought of actually taking this class for pleasure or because it is a class that's going to help with sexuality, Most of them just can't justify it for themselves. They can say, well, if I have a partner, then maybe I can take the class because I need to do that for them. But to actually recognize that part of the cancer journey, I I believe, never having had personally experienced it, but what I have believed given the work that I've done intimately with these women is that is that it is this huge reclamation of who they are and that they deserve everything that they want because they deserve it. And so to actually claim to take a class such as mind rediscover my body because they want to know more pleasure and that is it, It's like, that's a powerful reclamation. And oftentimes, what I see is that women sign up because of all of the external realities of my relationship or my partner or I should be doing this, but not because they want to initially. And that's where the real revolution happens is when they actually claim it, that they actually do want this, that this actually is important, that it is actually tapping into life force, that it is actually going to heal them and, you know, I gotta say reinforce their well-being.
Tara:
Right? All of those reasons when they come to that at the end, it's it's a no brainer. But, initially, it's it's hard stuff to sell.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yeah. I bet. I bet. Especially since yeah. So so many of us women have really been kind of indoctrinated and programmed to not prioritize our own pleasure and to not feel as though pleasure is our birthright, but, you know, it's something that we provide for others or a a byproduct of, you know, doing something with others. So yeah. Alright.
Freya Graf:
Well, I'd love to just have a little break in the line of questioning for now to do the segment get pregnant and die. Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and have a don't have sex in a missionary position, don't have don't have sex standing up. Just don't do it. Promise?
Tara:
Do you
Freya Graf:
have a sex ed related story for us? Mhmm.
Tara:
I have I have been thinking about this and, goodness, I I would have to say that by and large, most of my education in educational institution has been devoid of sexual health classes. And and I went to school in the New York City public school system in the seventies and the eighties, and that was my experience. And then even beyond in undergraduate and graduate studies. And in graduate studies, studying to be a clinician, 0 classes on human sexuality. And and that's astounding. Right? Because to become a sex therapist, I had to go to more school postgraduate. But but the one story that did stand out, because I did have a stellar health teacher, was that she really wanted to allow us to focus in on the creation of a language so we can begin to understand how we want it to be referenced, how we want it to be called, and beginning with the dispelling of all of the words that didn't feel good. And so we all came to class with words about genitalia that we did not like or that felt derogatory, and it was really interesting to have the whole class be kinda shouting out words like cunt and and feeling really empowered to be able to say that in school.
Tara:
And and then recognizing, at least for myself, it's like it's one thing to say it out loud like that. But in that class where everybody's saying the same word, it's it's almost like there's, it there was for me as a teenager this dissolution of the power over. I just felt like, wow. I could say that word and be okay, and everybody's saying it all at once. It's like it's not as powerful as I had felt before. This is taboo had been broken.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yeah. It's really powerful to just remove some of that power. Yeah. Shine a light into those those shadowy places, and it's like, oh, this isn't so bad. Yeah. Cool. Thank you.
Tara:
Yeah. You're welcome.
Freya Graf:
Alright. What about when recovery has happened? We're in remission. You know, hopefully, that journey is sort of behind us. What are some steps to reconnecting with and rediscovering our bodies and our pleasure and reclaiming our bodies now in this new chapter.
Tara:
Mhmm. I love that because I do feel like this is applicable to all all all women on some level, like, whether they've had a cancer journey, whether they've had a baby, whether they've gone through menopause. It's like all of these Yeah. Major moments in our life. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. That these are experiences.
Tara:
And and the opportunity, I would say, is for us as women to I I like to slow down and really actually be with my body and accept what is. And sometimes that's just a lot in and of itself because oftentimes I have the expectations or the demands that I put on myself with my mind. And when I really feel into my body and into my I like to say my womb space and and feel into that part of me, I feel like there's such a truth and such a knowing. And that the access point for me again is this slowing down and actually being with myself. It's shutting out all the chatter, all the noise of all of the external referencing that oftentimes I find, particularly as women that we're so programmed to do, that we're referencing other people, that our pleasure is there, that our power is there, that our wisdom is there, and knowing now, right, that that's so not true and that everything is within, and that I slow down and be with that. And then what I find is that there's a level of acceptance of what is that is actually very liberating, Because then I'm not dictating or changing what is and trying to make it something different. And then from that acceptance, there's this amazing flow of love. And and from that love was oftentimes what I find is, like, there's a juiciness in that.
Tara:
And then I I have the opportunity to experience that with myself, and then I can choose to share that with another if I if I want. Then I'd say that's that's a really powerful practice. And and some of the ways that I know that women can get there are, I I would say, through similar pathways for the resolution of trauma as for the higher levels of ecstasy is breath, sound, movement, and presence. Are those four elements of how then the breath can move the energy as the sound or the resonance and the vibration, and then the movement, and then how present can we be with those three strategies, if you will?
Freya Graf:
Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and 5 star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster, and it's really easy to just quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving 5 stars for the show on Spotify or, even better, writing a written review and leaving 5 stars over on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're a real overachiever, you can do them both. That would be mad. If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use g rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates. Lame.
Freya Graf:
Anyway, I would personally recommend doing that right now while you're a member just to get on top of it and let me know you're with me on this journey. Thanks, gang. Enjoy the rest of the epi. Yeah, beautiful. And so what about when, I guess, someone's been through this massive, massive experience, physically, they've had a lot of pain, perhaps over a long period of time. They have felt betrayed by their body. They have felt, you know, at odds with with their physical body, for so long. Like, how can we get back the trust, I suppose? Because something I haven't worked with too many people, with cancer or post cancer, but what I have noticed with people who've had, like, physical pain conditions is that sometimes an injury or a medical trauma or a surgery or some kind of initial physical trauma has then created this pain cycle in the body and this, like, bracing.
Freya Graf:
So people come with vaginismus, you know, their pelvic floor muscles are contracting in in apprehension, you know, waiting for the pain to hit with any kind of penetration even though maybe the initial cause of that pain isn't existing any longer in the body. You know, we are still bracing for that pain, and then that bracing creates discomfort or pain or numbness or just, you know, lack of pleasure that we could perhaps feel beforehand. Like, our bodies have changed. They've gone through this huge thing. How do you tackle it when, yeah, someone's struggling to, find a way to access pleasure in their new body post cancer that, you know, they used to be able to access and maybe struggling to feel sexy because of that, or in touch with with their body.
Tara:
Yes. Yeah. And yeah. So yeah. So similar to vaginism, similar to vulvodynia. Yeah. This this referencing what I find is of the pain. And so, yes, the bracing or the enduring and then the the expecting that the pain will emerge again.
Tara:
And that is a trauma response, and so then the resolution of the trauma needs to happen within the system and that happens through release. Right? So what has happened is in that moment, the trauma has gotten stuck in the body, and that there it needs to be released from the body. And and I believe that one of the best best ways to do that is through somatic practice. And so I teach, what's called trauma releasing exercises which were developed by doctor David Berceli. And, essentially, what it is, it's a neurogenic tremor. So it's tremors that happen throughout the body that emanate from the brain. They don't know exactly where, but the shaking happens and similar to somatic experiencing, similar to, I would say when we have an experience of over overwhelm like in a car accident, or something emotionally impactful, where we actually viscerally shake and that that is part of the release of the neurochemical cocktail of adrenaline and cortisol and norepinephrine, and that it's this release of that from the body, that discharge, and it needs to happen. And oftentimes we don't allow that because we feel like it's not appropriate.
Tara:
It's it feels weird or I must be weird or something's wrong with me, and so we shut down and we hold on to that. And it actually isn't benefit benefiting us. It's not helping our system, and so there needs to be this organic release of that. And then with that release, there can actually be more freedom, more pleasure, more, expansion within the body.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Beautiful. I've done quite a lot of TRA in my in my time, although I haven't done any, like, really intentional sessions for years. I used to do it, like, every I I work in a very hands on way with with clients doing body work and internal vaginal massage, which is often a huge kind of like, it's a final piece of the puzzle. Sometimes when people have done a lot of talk therapy, they've done all these different things, but they need that real kind of, you know, body based somatic release of of the trauma from the tissues. And so I'm sort of giving them a heads up before we do that. Like, you may have tremors come through your body. You might have these kind of, you know, little mini, like, trauma response things that happen, hate, tears, emotions arising, fear, anger, sadness, grief.
Freya Graf:
And if you can, if you possibly can and you feel safe and comfortable, which that's my job to create that safe space, please allow those things to come up and out and be expressed, like shake, you know, tremor, scream, cry, laugh hysterically. Literally anything that you have the urge to do that wants to come through your body, let that happen because that is the juice and that is that trauma releasing itself from your tissues and, you know, hopefully no longer plaguing you and and causing that sort of, bracing effect, or the numbness and the disconnect from that part of your body. So, yeah, I really, really back these more somatic based, methods for sure.
Tara:
Yes. Uh-huh. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. And and lately, my studies have taken me to the right hand patterns. And so the patterns of or I would say even the belts of tension that we hold within the body. And so some patterns are enduring, so there's more bracing and then there's other patterns that experience more leaving.
Tara:
Right? So they actually, disembodied. And yeah. And so understanding how that lives within the physiology. And so it's been a it's a been a good lens to be able to view what is happening in the body as we experience trauma or overwhelm to the nervous system and then to understand what might be helpful in terms of release. But, yeah, I love trauma releasing exercises. I just think they're really beneficial for so many bodies.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. And I love what you said about the, I've already forgotten the the the leaving, like, that, disembodying. Like, do you mean when people dissociate from their body in in their trauma response? Okay. So, like, what's a what's a sort of go to tactic when that is happening rather than the bracing? Because that is also something I hear a lot with people who have had sexual abuse, sexual trauma. You know, they're they're in a safe relationship. They absolutely adore their partners. They wanna be having sex, but whenever they do, they leave their bodies, and they dissociate, and they wanna they wanna know how to stop doing that.
Tara:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. I think that that is a a larger piece of, yeah, of this work, because I I find that women who've had cancer, they experience the numbness and also then they experience the leaving, that it's not just the embracing or the enduring. And part of the, I would say, the process to remedy that is to know that the body is safe, that they can come back to the body, because I believe that there's an underlying belief that the body is not safe so they can't stay in it. And that's huge. I'd say for people who've experienced ongoing trauma, childhood abuse, that it the body doesn't feel safe. And the invitation to come back into the body through practices like the trauma releasing exercises, through simpler and easy connection in terms of pleasure, not going to maybe penile vaginal intercourse.
Tara:
Right? But to go through through processes that are more, I would say, simple. Right? There these gentle connections where the person can remain present and know that they're present and getting to the place where they're able to titrate when they're about to leave and before they leave. And so beginning to really track themselves and to cultivate that type of independent observer is a form of mindfulness or body fullness, and it's it's difficult because it is a process. It's not one that just happens, and it takes a long time, I would say, years sometimes to have that awareness that that is what's happening. Because when you leave, you really leave. And that it's it's it's trickier, I would say, in some respects than the bracing because the bracing at least the person is still in the body. But the leaving, it's like, well, you gotta coax them back into the body.
Freya Graf:
Totally. Yeah. And just really gently and gradually raise their threshold or their window of tolerance before they check out and dissociate bit by bit by bit, and build safety over time. Yeah. Beautiful. I'm wondering I mean, this might be a question that you get a bit. It's something that I thought of as, something I get from people that have had even just like surgeries and things. Can someone expect to go back to how things were sexually after they've recovered, or will their approach to sex and intimacy likely always be different or or have to be, like, tweaked due to changes that they've undergone through the treatment or just approach differently from then on out because now they've had this really massive, quite traumatic experience.
Tara:
Mhmm. Mhmm. I I have a good friend. She's a spiritual teacher, and she just says never go back. I like that, because I do feel like there's some truth to that in that we're always evolving. Right? So if we allow ourselves that experience that we're always evolving, that there is no need to attach to what was, even when it felt good that the opportunity is to build on that and maybe revisit that right in the spiral that we can then view it again or be in that again from a different perspective because we are different people. And we can't deny our experiences or who we've become, but we get to add to that. So, again, this both and perspective is that we get to have all of the great sex that we had before and now have it from a different lens and a different experience.
Tara:
And I think that's important because I do think there's a lot of truth to never go back. I think when we have this desire to regain something that was, we're shrinking ourselves or trying to make ourselves smaller to fit into something that no longer serves us and that the opportunity is to embrace something more vast and much more potential and more pleasure.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. I totally agree. And I think sometimes people can really grieve and lament the fact that, you know, they can't go back to whether it's, like, their pre baby body or their sex life before they, you know, went through menopause or whatever. But I think with these, like, really huge, like, rites of passage, you're kind of initiated into a new body, a new way of being. And it's almost like it's it's maybe a little bit more work, especially as you recalibrate, but it's it's pretty much always, like, forcing you to level off and actually, like, put a bit more effort and thought and intention into how you approach sex. Like, sure. It was fun when you're young and super lubricating easily and able to just, like, have raw dog sex with no freaking foreplay every now and then. Like, cool.
Freya Graf:
But, like, I have zero interest in going back to that kind of sex. Like, I actually want to honor my body more. Like, the older I get and the more time I need to take to get to the same level of arousal or readiness for penetrative sex. Like, I don't see that as a bad thing or, like, a chore. Like, yeah, it's a bit more inconvenient. And, sure, like, the people pleaser in me, like, feels as though, like, oh, god. I need to be, like, hurrying up or taking less time, and I think a lot of women feel that way. But I think it means you can't take shortcuts, and you have to honor your body and its needs and find ways to connect with pleasure and your sexuality in more creative, you know, manners.
Freya Graf:
So it's not a bad thing. It's different and could actually just be better in a lot of ways.
Tara:
Yes. Because then what it is, it's dismantling, right, this linear progression of penovaginal intercourse that oftentimes, goodness, destroys our creativity and imagination. So yay to that.
Freya Graf:
Yay to that. I'm on board with that. What about libido and desire, though? That's, like, kind of another little angle that I would like to cover because it's a very common question I get, especially from women about their libido. I imagine there's often a bit of a loss of libido while you're going through a cancer journey. Can that return after? And, like, what are some strategies to kind of reconnect with feelings of, like, just sensual aliveness. I mean, probably everything you've already covered, but do you have anything else to say on that piece or maybe some reassurance to give people that are like, oh my god. Malabito just disappeared and I don't know if it'll come back.
Tara:
Yes. I I do because yeah. I love that that that yeah. The sensual play is yes. Sensual awareness. Yes. Yes. And oftentimes, right, because we're dismantling things here.
Tara:
Right? And part of it is the the patriarchy in which we all live that oppresses all of us. Right? Men and women. And that oftentimes, what we learn in terms of the sexual response cycle is desire, arousal, and then orgasm or ejaculation. Right? That's kind of the short progression. Yeah. And for women, the desire, which is the thought of, oh, I think I'd like to be sexual, doesn't always precede arousal, And that's really good information. So for most women, especially after a cancer diagnosis or having a kid or menopause or wherever we are in our cycle of life, is that we need the arousal. We need to have our sensual self awakened.
Tara:
We need to have that experience of like, I feel alive. I feel engorgement. I feel turned on. And from that feeling, oh, yeah. I think I'd like to be sexual. So the arousal precedes the desire. And so if we wait for the desire, we may never be sexual. So I just wanted to yeah.
Tara:
I just wanted to dispel that myth, because oftentimes, that's what I hear. It's like I'm not feeling it. It's like, well, okay. Yeah. So good to know. And then what type of arousal would turn you on? And and sometimes women don't know, and that's okay too. Right? But then the opportunity is to begin to explore, like, what could What could absolutely turn you on? And what do you like? What do you know that you liked in the past? What do you imagine that you might like more than the future? And then that can really if you give yourself permission to experience that, that can really open so many doors. So that's what I'd like to say about that.
Freya Graf:
Love that. Yay for responsive arousal. That was a game changer when I found out about how how I work in that regard. And I teach a lot about that sort of thing and and how to discover, like, what it is that actually really arouses you and starts to bring on that that desire, in my online course, Queen Out. Quick little plug, everyone. That's, like, such an important piece to, 1, feel like, oh, I'm not actually broken. I just don't get spontaneously turned on, like, fucking for no reason. It doesn't mean I think a lot of people mistake having a low libido with actually just having a really responsive style of arousal, which means, like, of course, you're not gonna just magically feel really turned on and have this desire to have sex or feel, you know, motivated to seek out sex, like, for no reason, you know, from from baseline.
Freya Graf:
That doesn't necessarily mean you have a low libido, although you're not gonna have, like, amazing sex and really enjoy it once you're in the moment and you are feeling aroused and desirous. But, yeah, I think a lot of people are expecting a lot from themselves because of what we see in the media, in porn, in movie sex scenes, in, you know, the majority of male bodies who can have that spontaneous turn on just occur. Yeah. But that's a different topic. Yeah.
Tara:
I would love to hear you. Comparing them or if they're comparing themselves to their former self that was more
Freya Graf:
hormone driven.
Tara:
Right? So I used to be like that, but now I'm not. It's like, oh, yeah. And we evolved.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Totally. Or, like, you know, I've been with my partner for 6 years. And in the beginning, we were just, like, fucked like rabbits all the time. I didn't I I didn't need to, like, try to get turned on. I just always wanted to have sex, and then now the desire is gone. What is wrong? Like, that's such a common a common thing. And, yeah, it's it's good to, like, have an understanding that, like, there's there's really nothing wrong.
Freya Graf:
Like, your body's functioning exactly how it's designed to. It's just that the expectations we place on it are pretty unrealistic because we're comparing it to past versions or different circumstances. And yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. So before I reach my last question, I'd love to get a TMI story from you if you've got one.
Tara:
Oh goodness.
Freya Graf:
I see it.
Tara:
I'm not even sure what I could say about that. Yeah. I would need more prompting. I I I was thinking about that before coming on, but I'm like, oh, I don't know.
Freya Graf:
That's alright. Well, I actually thought of 1, like, earlier when we're talking it, I thought of this story that I hadn't I'd I'd completely forgotten about. And I was like, like, oh, am I gonna share that? But I think I will. It's kinda relevant and it's it's pretty TMI because I I even feel a bit uncomfortable sharing it. And that's saying, but, if people have listened to past episodes, they'll know that at different points, I've, like, tried some interesting career moves to try to make money. Not not so much career move as, like, a little dabble, but I tried to do, like, a, pro doming, sugar daddy type situation. I never I was never prepared to actually have sex with any of these men. I just I was doing tantric bodywork at the time and lingam massage and things.
Freya Graf:
So I was like, oh, I'll go on these websites where people are hunting for sugar daddy, sugar baby, arrangements, and I'll see if I can drum up a bit of business. Tricky thing was, like, most of them just wanted sex, and that wasn't what I was prepared to do, so it didn't really work. But I went on a couple of, like, quote, unquote dates or, like, interviews with men to see if we could have some sort of, like, arrangement where, like, I would give them tantric bodywork sessions, and they would give me money. And there was this one guy that I went to dinner with who explained his situation. He was like, I'm married, but my wife, who he'd been with for 20 years, had vulva cancer, maybe cervical cancer as well. Basically, it sounded like she'd had many, many surgeries and her entire, like, genital region and reproductive region was, like, so much of it was removed and there was a lot of, like, trauma around that. And she had pretty much just said, like, after all that, I never wanna have sex again. I don't even know if it was super physically possible or whether it was just painful or whether she just wanted to tap out of any connection to her sexuality after such a traumatic cancer journey.
Freya Graf:
But she, you know, he wanted to stay with her and still be in the relationship, but they didn't have sex. And so she had given him permission to seek out a separate arrangement so that he could get those sexual needs met. And I just remember being, like, utterly heartbroken for her. I I was like, you should get her to come and have a session with me because, like, I I do your knee massage and, you know, pelvic floor internal release work, things like that. I'm not sure if I would have been able to, I might have been out of my depth there. But, yeah, I didn't see him again and I because he wanted sex, and I was like, look, dude. I said that that's not something I'm prepared to do. And even though his wife had, like, given him the green light, I was just, like, so heartbroken for her and for them that, yeah, it made me really sad and uncomfortable.
Freya Graf:
So anyway, that was like a little, anecdote that seemed relevant because I guess in some cases, yeah, that that might actually happen in a in a relationship where one of them has had such a big traumatic cancer battle.
Tara:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I and I would say, yes. This story that you share is actually not that uncommon that I've heard of many couples, because maybe, right, her prognosis isn't good and that she will die in the next couple of months. And then, her partner is caring for her and he still wants a sexual connection. And so he'll seek that out from other sources with her consent. And I do think that that is a level of consciousness and of agreement that is of a high caliber and that it's painful and and beautiful that someone could love another so unconditionally that they want them to have their needs met and feel love and their sexual fulfillment, and know that they can't give it to them or they can't share it with them.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yeah. So sad.
Tara:
Yeah.
Freya Graf:
Alright then. So just to wrap up on a slightly more hopeful, cheery notion, what like, do you have any parting words of reassurance or, like I mean, it's tricky because everyone has different experiences that might be different kinds of cancer or different surgeries have gone through different relationship dynamics. And they could be struggling with, like, vaginal dryness and painful sex or difficulty orgasming or like, there's so many different things that we've spoken about. But would you have any, like, tips or suggestions for people to kinda send them away with? Hey. Me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it 5 stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I wanna mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote, tea, togs. Yep. You heard that right.
Freya Graf:
I even have labia lounge bathers, or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So, if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my buy me a coffee donation page, which is actually called buy me a soy chai latte because I'll be the first to admit, I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that. And yes, that is my coffee order. You can do a one soft donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as 3 fat ones a month. And I also offer 1 on 1 coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way. So every bit helps because it ain't cheap to put out a sweet podcast, into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be undyingly grateful if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental b j with my mind from the lounge itself.
Freya Graf:
Salty. And, I'll pop the links in the show notes. Thank you. Later.
Tara:
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Because the techniques are easy enough to find. I mean and yeah. And I'm happy to be a resource for those as well. I'd say probably the more profound pieces are the pieces of of self love. Right? Because that's really the critical factor because again, the techniques will come, but the belief system that you deserve pleasure.
Tara:
Right? That you deserve so much more that you're worth it. That this exquisite self love is actually going to support you through everything. Is is so essential for women to know at this time. And and that if they have a partner that the opportunity is to connect them connect with them in sweet, loving ways that are are simple. They don't need to be over the top. It doesn't need to be intercourse. It can just be intentional and sweet and loving and simple.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. So beautiful. I think that's, yeah, a gorgeous approach because it kinda covers all bases. It doesn't matter if it's like it doesn't matter what the actual, like, physical thing going on or the the the challenge. That's that approach is kinda gonna be helpful in every situation. Right? So True thing. Yeah. Awesome.
Freya Graf:
Oh, gorgeous. Thank you so much, Tara. I've really loved this chat. I'll put your work and links in the show notes, and I'd highly recommend people going and checking out Tara's work and book. So I think you had special offer for my listeners. We booked this in so many months ago. So if that's changed, I can just cut this out. But I've got down there's a little note saying that there's a special offer for listeners, 25% off coaching with you.
Tara:
Yes. And I I didn't put the code in yet, so they can just contact me with your name, and then that would be wonderful. And I would love to honor that. And so right now, I have a 3 month coaching practice, which is a deep dive for women with cancer or women who are just wanting to connect more with themselves, and that that is a wonderful opportunity to dive into, I would say, more embodiment, more pleasure, more intimacy with oneself.
Freya Graf:
Awesome. Juicy. Love it. Well, take advantage of that, guys. 25% off is massive. That's so generous. So thanks, Tara.
Tara:
My pleasure. Yeah. You're welcome. My pleasure.
Freya Graf:
Alright, everyone. See you later. And that's it, darling hearts. Thank you for stopping by the labia lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it, just waiting for you to sink back in for some more double l action next time. And in the meantime, if you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode, or leave a review on iTunes, then you can pat yourself on the snatch because that, my dear, is a downright act of sex positive feminist activism. And you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatize with this here podcast. Also, I'm always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered or guest suggestions.
Freya Graf:
So feel free to get in touch via my website at freyagraf.com or say hi over on Insta. My handle is freyagraf_thelabialounge and I seriously hope you're following me on there because damn, we have fun. We have fun. Anyway, later labial legends. I'll see you next time.