Dating App Culture Deep Dive

Freya Graf [00:00:00]:

What's up, everyone? So just before I let you get stuck into this episode, which it's a juicy one, I just want to plug my course, Queen Out, because doors are closing for this epic journey in two, three days from now, and I really want you to be part of it, my darling. Label Legends get a $200 discount. There's the discount code and the link in the Show Notes, so please check that out. I did a poll recently on my Instagram account just asking everyone, are you truly sexually fulfilled and satisfied in your sex life? And the result of that poll was just overwhelmingly, no, I'm not. And through my work, through different surveys, through chatting with people, through talking to clients, I know for a fact the majority of women are not satisfied or fulfilled in their sex life, whether they're partnered or single. And so Queen Out is designed specifically to combat this. Whether you have a partner, whether you're single, whether you're monogamous, whether you're poly. It doesn't really matter. The course is for you. It's for everyone. And it's going to help you with communication in the bedroom, with body image, with confidence, with getting out of your head, with learning how to orgasm, either on your own, with a partner multiple times in a row, having different forms and different kinds of orgasms. It's going to teach you about your pleasure anatomy. It's going to give you the tools that you really should have received in sex ed. So I really encourage you. If for whatever reason, you're not super satisfied in your sex life if you have issues with orgasming or with pleasure, with pelvic floor tension or pain or numbness in your vagina if you struggle to communicate about your desires or boundaries, if you are a chronic people pleaser, if you're always in your head and overthinking things, if you feel self conscious in the bedroom, if you seem to just be attracting dickheads that aren't actually honoring and respectful and worshipping your body, this course is for you. I'd love to support you. Go to the link in the Show notes, check out what's involved. Jump on board. Use that discount code. It gets you $200 off. It's pretty freaking good. And I really back this, like, scroll down, read the testimonials. It works. Anyway, I've got Joe on today. He's a romantic at heart. He's a total babe. He's created a really cool new dating app that you'll hear about, and other than speaking about the difference between his dating app and most of the big ones available, we mostly delve into a really interesting conversation around what he's discovered through his research and development with creating his own dating app. The problem he's trying to solve around the real sort of dehumanization that dating apps have brought into the culture. We talk about the culture of dating. We talk about the lingo that's used now, and that's necessary now with dating apps. We talk about the pitfalls. We look into red flags, green flags, what to kind of look out for, and dating tips and things like that. So I hope you enjoy this conversation and please join me for Queen Out while doors are still open. This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets. Welcome, welcome, my lovely lumps, or should I say, lovely labs. I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge to yarn about all things sexuality, womanhood holistic, health, and everything in between your legs. Can never help myself. Anyway, we're going to have VAG loads of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up. You're about to receive the sex ed that you never had and have a bloody good laugh while you're at it. Before we get stuck in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this, the Manang People. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content on Noga Country, and I pay respect to their elders past, present, and emerging. Now, if you're ready, let's flap and do this. Oh, God. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. I'm leaving it in. It's my podcast. Don't panic. You're not broken. Your sex education was a piece of shit. Get your flat out here's. The labia lounge. Welcome back my labial lounges. I've got Joe. Oh, my God. I do this every time. How do I pronounce your last name? Is it Feminella?

Joe Feminella [00:04:45]:

Perfect. That was great.

Freya Graf [00:04:47]:

Okay, honestly, I can't even tell you how many times that's happened. And I'm like, I've got so and oh, fuck. Anyway, I've got Joe with me today, founder of First Rounds On Me, which is a dating app, and Joe has a finance and technology background and used his knowledge of both industries and the dating culture in New York to start First Rounds On Me. Having been brought up right before the era of dating apps, joe saw the vast difference between meeting people organically in person versus the new wave of virtual dating and seeing the pain points with the dating app wave. Joe wanted to combine the old school way of meeting with the new school adoption of technology to make dating as organic and real as possible, which is a fascinating topic for me because I'm also at that age where I kind of remember what dating was like before all the apps came to the party. And I've definitely been known to talk on this podcast a little bit about how dating apps have kind of changed the whole culture around dating, in my opinion, often for the worst. So I'm really excited to hear from you, Joe, about what you've learned through your journey, like creating and launching first rounds on me, because I'm sure through r and D and everything that you would have had to do. In that process. You've learned a lot of interesting stats and insights and stuff and yeah, first rounds on me sounds really exciting to me because of the twist, but I'm going to let you chat about that. So welcome to the labia lounge.

Joe Feminella [00:06:16]:

Yeah, no, this is exciting. It's funny, when my wife saw the title of the podcast, she was like, this looks like an interesting one. And I was like, yeah, we talk about yeah, I mean, I'm super excited to talk about the dating app and just kind of like my mission and why I started it. And I think that's super important. Right. I always tell people when you start a dating app, you can kind of get thrown into the stigma of doing it for the wrong reasons or falling into the trap of this certain hookup culture. And I think we're trying to do that the opposite of that, right? We're trying to really retrain people's brains into how to adapt with dating apps and with technology and kind of just be more intentional and genuine with our approach.

Freya Graf [00:06:58]:

Beautiful. It's so needed, it's so necessary. And I'm sure we'll get into chats about all of that stuff, but I'm pumped. I mean, I wouldn't probably get your average dating app founder on here because I'm like dating apps, god, ruining dating. But I really love what you're trying to do and you're trying to kind of shift it back to the more organic and authentic and humanized way of meeting people, which sometimes technology can kind of remove. So before we get stuck into all of that, can you give me a bit of background on your experience with dating in the past and why you saw this as an important niche to fill when it comes to dating with apps?

Joe Feminella [00:07:42]:

Yeah, so I would say let's put dating aside, right? Just life in general. I was always just really intrigued by getting to know people on a deep level, right. Even from a young age, whether it's friends or people I just met in passing. And I don't know why, but I was just like, I just want to get to know what makes people tick. And I guess as I got older into my adult life, that's kind of what fascinated me most about dating. And I'm 33, so like we said, we're in that weird age of understanding the dating culture before and during this new wave of dating apps. And what fascinated me was like, once you started to use these apps, it was so inorganic that if everybody was on a dating app to use it for the right reason, I think it could work well. But it was so new to our brains, it was so new to our way of life, that the communication and misunderstanding threw the whole thing off. And everybody still to this day is so frustrated with dating apps, but it's so ironic that everybody still uses them. And I think what fascinated me was I lived in a city new york, right? And in that city, everybody's really outgoing and kind of confident, motivated, and it's kind of all the right people that you'd want to have in a dating pool. And I still saw that not only was everybody struggling with dating or socializing, we were just in this weird influx of misunderstandings. So I was like, okay, I see this big niche in the market, and that really excited me, right? I was like, if you're going to get into some industry, I think figuring out where the hole is is like, step one, right? And I was, okay, there's definitely a hole here, but let me get people's perspective outside of mine because maybe I might like something that nobody else likes. And as I just started to talk to women, I was like, what makes you tick? What do you want in a dating app? And they kind of all just said the same things. Like, if I want to meet somebody, I want them to take me out and I want to get to know them in person. And I was like, okay, this resonates kind of what I preach. And that's what I did. I was like, how do I fill these gaps and holes with combining that old school, organic way of meeting with this new wave of technology? And I thought New York was the most fascinating place to do it. And the different characters and people I spoke to with both sexes was just so fascinating. And it led me to kind of create this unique perspective that I made my own.

Freya Graf [00:10:12]:

Yeah, cool. That's exciting. I mean, dating apps are pretty irresistible. I don't use them anymore. I'm happily partnered. But I remember resisting them for years. I guess there was like a portion of stigma around them still back when I was because I'm also just about to turn 33. So they were kind of more fresh. It was a little bit less common to use them. And it had kind of been seen as like, maybe something that older people did or yeah, it just wasn't so commonplace. So I resisted them for years and then eventually when I just thought, fuck it, I'm going to give this a go. What's this all about? I realized exactly why it's obviously just incredibly addictive because it's this constant dopamine hit, but it's also just it opens up this whole world. And when you're lonely and you want to meet people and you're finding it hard to make new connections with people outside of your kind of pool of social, I guess people you have access to in your social pool. Yeah, it's really tantalizing. And so I really get why people still use them, even though and I know so many people that would download them, use them for like a couple of weeks and then go, nah, all right, that's it. I've got to get off, and then go a couple of weeks and then be like, oh, my God, one night sitting at home eating ice cream, like, downloaded again, and it was this kind of vicious cycle and people were using them in quite an unhealthy way. And yeah, we're going to get into what makes first rounds on me different and how you're kind of combating this issue with the way that people use them in this really fast throwaway kind of way. Do you want to tell us how it works and what makes it different? How you're kind of trying to bridge that gap and make it more human?

Joe Feminella [00:12:03]:

Yeah, definitely. And before I do that, I actually want to touch on a couple of the things you said because they are so important for people to know, like that dopamine, right? That validation. That's one of the main problems with apps today, right? It's like you can sit on your bed or while you're up late at night just typing and randomly connecting. And if you get a like or a match, it validates you so much and you might not even realize it. And once that like, comes in, that next step of meeting in person is kind of the secondary step where you're like, I actually don't want to meet somebody. I just wanted that validation of the match and take that a step further. Once you do match with somebody, the next step is like, the social anxiety, right? A lot of people have social anxiety of actually meeting in real life, right? You might go on a dating app, I want to go on a date tonight. And then when you match with somebody, you kind of second guess it because we put so much pressure on ourselves with all these expectations to these first dates. And I think that's problem number two, right, where then someone might ghost or back out and again creates miscommunication. And the other thing, the first thing that you mentioned was like, your meet cute story, right? When dating apps first came about, it was a stigma to be on them, to tell people you met your partner on them. And now it's more common to meet your partner on a dating app than in real life. And it's kind of fascinating to see how that stigma is kindly kind of fully shedded and people's meet cute stories include dating apps now, so it's just this ever evolving world.

Freya Graf [00:13:34]:

Someone was really surprised the other day when they asked how my partner and I met, and they were like, oh, wow, in person? How old school it I was like, oh God. It's funny because I know a lot of people that use the apps purely for the validation, purely for the dopamine hit, just so that they have a little ego boost and they have zero intention of meeting these people. Half of them have zero intention of even chatting. They just like the action of the swiping and the little the thrill of like, that person finds me attractive and that's what they do it for. Which, like, no judgment, I get it, but also, fuck me, it just creates this pretty horrific culture of lack of accountability and ghosting and just ill. It's just pretty egoic and validation seeking, which I don't blame them, but yeah, it's good. Tell us how you've gotten around that.

Joe Feminella [00:14:24]:

Yeah. So first runs on me. The first thing we want is the communication to be there, where all the users know that they're on there for the right reason. And that right reason, we mean, is at least leading to a real date. Because based off statistics and just the way humans operate, that's the most likely opportunity for two people to connect, right? It might not be like, what their attraction has led to, right? That's mostly done through pictures and just visualization in real life, but if you actually want to connect with somebody, that's when that happens in person, to talk to somebody and feel their energy and all that stuff. And that's what we want to preach first is right? Like everybody on our platform knows you're probably going to meet somebody on a real life date and who knows what could happen. And the way we differentiate ourselves is like in three main areas, right? So the first is a lot of people don't know what to do for a first date, right? And it adds a layer of pressure that doesn't need to be there. And with our app, we give you the tools to pick the drink, the time and the place. And at least once you guys agree to that date, that huge layer of stress is taken care of, right? So it's like refreshing to know that there's a plan in place. And I think that goes a long way when you don't know somebody, right? It's like, who's going to take the lead here? Do I want to take the lead? Do I want to take the lead? So I think that's a good first step app. And the next thing is we only allow the users to connect with to have one date per day, right? So to essentially connect with one person at a time. And for me, that's really important, right? Because like these other apps, like we were just saying, you don't know how many people the other person is talking to and what level of engagement they have. And it's not their fault. It's just like they've got thrown into this world that no one really knows how to manage yet. And with our app, we're like, okay, why don't you just focus on one person at a time and see what could happen? And I think that just goes a long way in both people feeling seen and appreciated in that moment. And then the third thing is that the users could only talk to each other 12 hours before the date. So essentially it's like one whole day, right? If your date is 08:00 at night, your chat box opens 08:00 in the morning. And the reason we did that is because we give you a little bit of time to fill each other out, maybe banter for half a day and make sure the other person is responsive or normal. But super important for us is once you get on that first date, just have it be as real and organic as possible. Just like you met somebody at the bar for the first time, right. And kind of saving those questions of like, hey, Frey, where are you from? What do you do? Tell me your story. When that story is told in person in real life, that's when the energy and the beauty of conversation can easily flow. And if that happens on the phone, it's good. It's good to vet somebody. But when you meet them, it's awkward because you kind of know them and there's no room for easy flow or there's less.

Freya Graf [00:17:29]:

You've used up all the obvious conversation cues and you're like, Fuck, where do I go from here?

Joe Feminella [00:17:34]:

Exactly. I think that helps with the pressure. Right? Like, if I met you when I met Hannah, I was like, Tell me, where are you from? And she said, Australia. Right. So I had all these questions about Australia and it just led into this organic conversation where if I knew all that before we met, maybe I would have had weird questions about Australia that were, like, pre planned and the conversation wouldn't have been. But yeah, that's essentially what we're trying to do.

Freya Graf [00:18:00]:

Yeah. Amazing. So you met your wife on a dating app?

Joe Feminella [00:18:04]:

Yeah, and it's so funny because while I was making first rounds on me, I still use dating apps and I was a fan of them. Right. Because I use them for the right reasons. I always wanted to meet somebody in real life. So when we had matched, I told her, I said, Listen, I really like to meet you as soon as possible, because the longer we wait on here, the less likely we'll meet or connect. And to my surprise, she was like, okay, I'm free tonight. And I was like, wow, okay. So she was like, oh, I'm a vegan, by the way, if you're going to find a spot. So I just Googled the closest vegan restaurant to me and I said, I'll see you at this place at 08:00. And she said, sure. And we met. And it worked perfectly, obviously, because we fell in love. But it just kind of helped me believe in what I was doing. I was like, okay, wow, this actually works. Because both me and this person believed the same way and we fell in love. And if we didn't use the app the way that I would like people to use the app, we probably would have never even met.

Freya Graf [00:19:03]:

Totally, yeah. I love it when someone's just on board and they're like, yeah, why not? What's that express? I swear I don't even know what this means, but when I was on the dating apps, there was a lot of I'm not here to fuck spiders. What does that mean? Is that like let's bang or like, let's just not fuck around, texting and let's go on a date?

Joe Feminella [00:19:25]:

I'm going to say the latter.

Freya Graf [00:19:28]:

Yeah, because there's all of this lingo that I was never quite sure that I had a handle on. And even just with the, I guess the main as far as I know, and I'm very out of the loop there's like the main three, like Hinge, Bumble, and Tinder. And I noticed people would talk about there was these emerging cultures that were unique to each app. And so it's like Tinder was for hookups and just one night stands and for people that weren't looking for a relationship. And then Bumble was more like women empowered feminist ally vibes and then Hinge was more for relationships. I don't know if that's still the same, but is there? Yeah. What do you think of these different kind of cultures that are emerging with the dating apps? Hey, babe. Towns so sorry to interrupt, but I simply had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that you've got to get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. And there you'll find extra bits and bobs, like freebies or discounts for offerings from guests who've been interviewed on the podcast, inspiring and thought provoking conversations and support from a community of label legends. I also have an account on the fab new app Sunroom, which is a platform created by women, for women and nonbinary folk, and where there's no shadow banning or censorship of sex positive content, unlike with the other platforms that I'm on. So you can hit up my sunroom for extra content and real and raw life updates because I'll be sharing on there from now on all of the stuff that I can't post anywhere else. My vision for both of these is that they become really supportive, educational and hilarious resources for you to have more access to me and a safe space to ask questions that you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to the links in the show notes and I'll hopefully see you in there. And now back to the episode.

Joe Feminella [00:21:26]:

Yeah, I think you kind of said it perfectly. And to elaborate more on that, I would say Tinder, because it was first to market, they are obviously going to always be the lead player and they've kind of transitioned into not caring so much about if people actually connect. I always like to say that they've kind of just became another social media platform where they just want people to stay on and swipe and they don't really care, and rightfully so. To them, they were first to market so they could do what they want and then Bumble evolved, right? So Whitney Wolf came from Tinder, and she had some issues with the guys there, and she was like, I want to create an app in an environment that's pro women. And I'm a big fan of Whitney Wolf and like what she does. And I would say that maybe Bumble, it's great, but I think a lot of the women like it in theory, but they also are like, of course I like to be equal and take the lead, but I don't so much always like to take the lead where I would like the man to like me first sometimes. So I think it works, but some people are not fully on board with that. And then, yeah, Hinge is great. I met Hannah on Hinge, and I would say the one thing and I'm a big fan of Hinge, by the way, but I would say the one thing that Hinge does is kind of like, curates all the profiles that you see to your preferences. And a lot of people get offended with the other profiles they see where they're like, oh, why am I being shown only people like this? Am I in that bucket? And it's weird, but I'm a big fan of Hinge, but I think that those three are definitely the big players.

Freya Graf [00:23:12]:

Yeah. Wow. Okay. So fascinating to me. I love going on friends, like, looking over their shoulder or doing a bit of swiping for them just as, like, a vicarious activity now because there's something exciting about the potentiality that around any corner or swipe, there could just be this unicorn of a human. But something that I'd love to talk about is, I guess, how dating culture has changed. And it's purely through anecdotal evidence and my own personal experience chatting to people. But it sort of feels like the apps have really shifted how we date and how we treat other people. Because it's almost like commodified potential partners or dates in this way. That makes it way more likely for there to be crap behavior like Ghosting or casual hookups when maybe one party actually didn't want the casual hookup and misleading kind of behavior because there's no accountability. Just the sheer volume of people and potential dates that we now have access to means that it's just harder to feel, like, personalized because you'd get super overwhelmed. You'd have this huge inbox full of different chats and matches. And I remember just, like, batching my opening message and making one that I could just copy and paste to everyone that was kind of applicable because it just got so hard to keep up with. And I would just be like, hey, so and so I'm just popping the kettle on. How do you take your tea? As, like, a really ambiguous opener that I was like, well, if they can come up with something creative, back to that, then off we go. But, yeah, even I was just like, I was trying to get some personality and some humanity in there, but it was still just a copy and pasted message because it just took so much energy to construct an individual one every time and then most people wouldn't even freaking reply, so it'd be really pointless and draining. And anyway, I just noticed this massive amount of what would be totally unacceptable behavior in the real world. Like, real fuck boy behavior. Poor communication ghosting. Just dudes generally not even treating me like a human because they could hide behind their screen and just toss me aside and keep swiping so easily without any need for communication or an explanation or justification. And so it just started feeling like this whole culture was so throwaway and so driven by immediate gratification and validation. And it was kind of immature. Bit like fast fashion where we have these just incredible amounts of choice with clothing super cheap at our fingertips. You can buy it online. Every item I've heard is only designed to be worn like eight times before it just falls apart or it's thrown away. So we don't value it and we don't invest in looking after it or treating it with respect because it's pretty much disposable. And I started feeling like humans were being treated like that a dime a dozen. And it did also for me as well. I started noticing myself sort of seeing other people and profiles in that way. Like I didn't ever stop treating people like humans with real feelings and lives. And I was always respectful, but I got really good at just very quickly screening people and being like, nah, nah. And I kind of didn't like how it was making me start to think. So yeah, it felt like the apps became a bit of a tool for just like shitty behavior, dodging accountability in the dating world, like finding hookups and cheap throwaway connections, if you want to call them connections. And it just changed the whole landscape of dating. And then people started being afraid to even meet in person. Like, oh my God, what do you mean you went on a real date? What have you noticed? Was that your experience? Obviously you would have done a lot of research and you're in this world. So what do you reckon about the culture of dating since dating apps came about?

Joe Feminella [00:27:21]:

Yes. I'm going to need your help to remember these three things. So one is taking it personal. Two is the endless options. And then three is rejection mindset. Yeah. So the first thing, because you said all these and they really stuck with me because they're really important. So the first thing was taking it personal. Right? And there was an article that came out, I think by Bustle, and it was a woman's point of view saying that everything you just stated, right, she hated fuck boys and she hated getting ghosted, and she did this research and she took a. Step back and she realized you're feeling that way as a human being, right. Like if that happened to you in real life, it's very valid, right. If you went up to a guy and he either didn't respond to you or he rejected you or didn't show up to a date, that's extremely valid. And he's devaluing you as a human. Right. I think taking it a step further and you being a user on a dating app, you're not a human being to that other person. And it sounds fucked up and it sounds crazy, but if he goes to you or he X's you out or doesn't accept your date, it's simply him just not seeing you as a person. It's seeing you as a number that day on the dating app. And I think that's the problem, right. And we have to understand on the other side of that is not taking it personal and realizing, like, this person has no idea who I am. They probably even remember what my profile looks like. So the fact that they ghosted me or didn't respond, it's because they just got hit with a new wave of numbers and their mind is all over the place. And understanding that on a dating app, you're not again, this sounds so fucked up, but it's bad. But you're not a person to the other person unless they actually care, right, which it very rarely happens. So I think not taking dating apps personally is super important because if you take it personally, like you said, you're going to go crazy. Think with all this rejection and ghosting because it's just going to happen every single day. And I think it's just important for people to understand it's not you, it's just the app.

Freya Graf [00:29:31]:

Yeah. Because you just get so jaded and bitter and yeah, fair enough. It's overwhelming. We've all got so much going on and so many different people chatting to you and stuff. But even like I found once we had met up, or if we chatted for like a couple of weeks and you feel like there's rapport there, you feel as though you're building something, there could still be the ghosting because it's just not the same. And that's where things just get lost in text. We know this. We know it's not a great way of communicating. We maybe feel as though we've built connection and rapport, but in reality, it's just nowhere near it's not going to replace what that same conversation or ground covered would have been like in person. So I think that's good. It's like if you're going to survive out there, you need to get fucking resilient and just not take it personally. Because everyone's they're all just being cunts.

Joe Feminella [00:30:25]:

Yeah. And that brings me up to another point. On top of the original three that I had was in this error. This new territory is so unique where people talk about the vetting process, right, and like, oh, I want to wait two weeks till I meet the guy in person or I want to know everything about him before I meet him. And again, that sounds good in theory, but as humans operate, each day that you talk to somebody through text or on an app, even if you're going to meet in two weeks, the odds of you connecting drop so much each day. You start to create this perception of this person in your head. That's not true, right? You're always going to make them better than they are or worse than they are, and you're just always going to be let down with who they really are as a person. So I think that that's a big thing to note, is, like, you should try and meet somebody as soon as you feel kind of comfortable because and again, be safe. Like, tell your friends where you are and make sure you're in a public spot. But my personal advice and my experience and through the research that I do, it's like if you actually want to try and connect with this person, you have to make it as soon as possible. And it's interesting, right, because in today's world, you want to Google somebody as much as possible, right. And it gets into one of my other points about this rejection mindset, right. We find reasons to reject somebody before we find reasons to accept them. And to me, it's crazy. I don't know why we're starting to operate this way, but it's like the baseline should be like if a guy treats or a guy or a girl, whichever way you're going, if that person treats you well and you have a good time with them and you're attracted to them, that should be the baseline on a building block to see what happens. Right. Of course, if you see no future or there's no attraction, I would probably advise walking away. But that should be the baseline. What we do now is find a reason why we shouldn't move forward, right? It's like through googling them or through finding something that's wrong with them, it's like, oh, this guy's perfect on paper, he makes me so happy. Our kissing is great, but he doesn't make as much money as I want, so I'm not going to see him again. And it's like, well, why are you finding that one negative thing to throw him away or her away when they have so many more important attributes to them that really would matter? And that's the rejection mindset that we're in today. And it's so funny because before dating apps, if you met somebody on a first date, right, the amount of time you really got to know them came over a few dates, right? Like, on the second date, you talk about deeper stuff. On the third date, you get more personal, right, and with a layer of trust, more comes out, right? But when that comes out, you already built this foundation where you're not going to judge that person as much, right. It's like, oh, you might not align with me politically, or you might not see eye to eye with me about this, but we kind of really like each other and really vibe, so let's figure out how to make that work. Now it's like we Google that person so thoroughly where it's like, you know what this person says, did this on social media. I'm not even going to meet them. And it's like, well, it could be so far from the truth of who that person actually is. And I think that's why this rejection mindset is really bad for dating as well. And what was the third thing that I said?

Freya Graf [00:33:54]:

Because we have endless options.

Joe Feminella [00:33:57]:

Yeah, funny, right? A lot of people complain that on dating apps, a woman will get a lot more matches and likes than a man, right. But the top 10% get all those matches from the women, right. So, like, 90% of men just don't get much action on dating apps. But the most disappointed people on dating apps are those top 10% of men, because they have so many options that they could be on a date with the most amazing person, but in the back of their mind, they're like, when I go home tonight, I'm probably going to find somebody who's just as good, if not better. And I just want to explore all these options. And then after you do that for a few months, for a year, for two years, you start to realize, like, what am I doing? I'm just making all these women compete against each other in my head when that's not what's making you really happy if you actually want to connect with somebody, right. And those men are starting to realize, like, shoot, I'm not putting my time and energy into this person when I actually want to connect with them because I'm thinking about the next person. So all this stuff is so fascinating to me, understanding the dating app world.

Freya Graf [00:35:08]:

Totally. And it's kind of hijacking our brain and our chemistry in a very clever way. And I've heard multiple different women talking about being on dates from a dating app, and while they're on the date, the guy is swiping or talking or they'll roll over in bed at night and he'll be like, on the app already kind of lining up his next date. And it's just like, oh my God. Because I guess it's designed to be addictive in that way. And if there are endless options, you just never know. The grass might be greener and yeah, you got to explore that just in case. That's the golden goose.

Joe Feminella [00:35:49]:

Yeah. So it's so funny because what you just said is what 90% to 95% of people on dating apps do, no matter how great their first date was, right. So there's examples of when two people go on a first date, they have an amazing date, right? But because our brain is so trained to go home and swipe and go on social media, after that date, we go back on the app, and then we don't give that person who we just went on the date. With time to build a relationship with us because our mind is so preoccupied with the app itself, which is such a disservice to the date you just went on. And then on the contrary to that, if you go on a really bad first date, our mind is like, I need to fill some type of void here because that was such a bad first. I need something to replace that. And again, that's such a terrible mindset in my opinion, because if you have a bad first date, you need to reflect and be like, well, why did I have a bad date? Was it something I did? Was it the type of person I'm trying to attract? And you should kind of give yourself a few days to dissect and reflect back on that date, but we don't. We just try and fill that void right away and then we'll go on another date. And if that date is bad, then it just starts to snowball into like, oh, all men are trash, all women are trash. This is just the worst atmosphere ever. And we don't give ourselves time to absorb what's actually going on.

Freya Graf [00:37:15]:

Totally. It's cleverly designed. It's super addictive. I have a very embarrassing story that I'm ashamed of. I think I've shared it on this podcast before, but a long time ago. But when I was really deep into dating up world briefly, I had to cut it out because it just got, like, so hard to put down my phone. But I was walking home from a gig once and it was maybe a half hour walk, and I was swiping as I was walking and I wasn't looking where I was going. So I kind of wound up taking a wrong turn and getting lost and then looked up and took a breath and I was like, oh, fuck, I don't know where I am. And I had barely any phone battery, probably because data gap takes so much. And I kind of got myself back on trap and then went back onto the app and was swiping, swiping, swiping. And I knew that my phone was dying. I was listening to music and I was like, damn, once my phone dies, I've got no maps, I've got no music, and I just couldn't stop it's. Like, my finger was bloody. I was just swapping swiping, swiping as I was walking. And I ended up walking, like, probably all up an hour because I kept taking wrong turns because I wasn't looking where I was going. And then my phone did die and all of a sudden I was like, oh my God, what have I become? I've gotten myself into this position out of sheer addiction and loneliness and need for validation. And I was like, wow, that's not cool. I'm not cool about that. I'm not telling anyone about that. And anyway, now I'm sharing it on the podcast to make sure people know that they're not alone. It's fucking addictive. And I get it.

Joe Feminella [00:38:49]:

Well, that's the thing, right? I think it's important for people to share their stories because nobody's alone and everybody has some type of group that could really relate to them. And it's so interesting you say that, because when I do this, I always try and pick up on news articles or things that are really prominent in the dating sector, but also in the social behavior sector. And I think it was like two months ago, the US Surgeon General, right? He has no care for dating apps, but he came out with this study that said most young people from 20 to 40 are the loneliest they've ever been in the history of humanity. And he attributed a lot of that to instant gratification through social media, through technology. And I thought it was him doing an article on first rounds on me, and I was like, wow, this is so perfect. I have to use this. He was just kind of saying, like, the most important aspect of being a healthy human being is creating the environment of other human beings around you and building relationships. Right. That plays a long way in longevity of life. Right. I think they had a study that said the people who live the longest have a lot of close relationships. And I think it's because you have some type of relevance and you have some type of care for another human being that keeps you going. And if you're just off on your own, what do you have really to live for? And I know it sounds morbid, but it makes sense.

Freya Graf [00:40:25]:

Yeah, totally. Connection is just everything. It's a bit of an epidemic, the loneliness that we're feeling and the disconnection, I guess largely because of tech, even though it's supposed to be connecting us more. So, yeah, that's cool that that study came out that you would have been jumping for joy, because it's basically like the perfect advertisement for your app.

Joe Feminella [00:40:51]:

GBT right now. Right. A lot of these guys who created Chad GBT are really scared and they're telling everybody else, like, we messed up here. Like, we need to pump the brakes because Chat GBT is not only going to take away so many jobs, but it's going to dehumanize all of us and kind of make us go extinct in a way. And when I hear stuff like that, I'm like, this is great because it's making even the most important people that make decisions in the world kind of readjust their mindset and saying, like, we might be going a little bit too far with technology and not using it.

Freya Graf [00:41:23]:

In the right way. Well, it's good that they're at least admitting that and reflecting on that because that kind of thing terrifies me and I get really frightened about where we're going. But anyway, that's a whole other podcast, so I'd love to do the segment. Get pregnant and die.

Joe Feminella [00:41:41]:

Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and don't have sex. Visionary position. Don't have don't have sex standing up. Just don't do it. Promise.

Freya Graf [00:41:55]:

If you've got a sex ed related anecdote or story to share with us, excuse the interruption, my loves, but I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and five star ratings for the Potty, because, as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people it can help. Reviews and ratings help me curry favor with the algorithmic gods and get suggested to other listeners to check out. Plus, they make me feel really good and appreciated as I continue to pour my heart and soul into creating this baby for you. And I promise I don't maze over them or anything. I mostly just tuck them away for a rainy day when I'm filled with self doubt and existential dread about being self employed, which is fairly frequently. So, you see, leaving a review really does make a difference, and it's an easy little act of support that you can take in just a minute or two by either going to Spotify and leaving five stars for the show or writing a written review and leaving five stars over on Apple podcasts, choose your poison. Or if you're a real overachiever, you could do both. Well, now, if you are writing a review, though, just be sure to only use G rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't actually show up. Lame. Anyway, what was that? Oh, you're going to go do it right now while I wait? Okay, yeah, no, that's a great idea. May as well just quickly click that five star button before we get on with it and forget about it and get on with your day. Oh, I'm hearing them roll in. I'm hearing those five stars. Oh, my God, I make myself cringe. Anyway, thank you much, Lee. You're a total gem and I'll let you get back to the episode now.

Joe Feminella [00:43:42]:

Great question. So I would say 100% honest. I'm 33 and I don't think I got full sex ed until I met Hannah, right? So she's 32. And yeah, I feel like it's super important the way that we kind of talk about sex and bring up sex to young adults, because me, personally, I thought I knew some stuff and I knew nothing. I have one story, and Hannah, she's here. She'll probably love this. I don't know if she's ever heard this, but I was living in New York, right, and I was kind of just like I wasn't like a one night stand kind of guy, but I had fun, and I valued my relationships with women, but I didn't really look to get into anything serious. And when you live a lifestyle like that, you don't really build a rapport with a woman to understand what they actually want, right? So it's kind of just like, you're in, you're out. And however it went, it went. And I met this girl on I think bumble, right? And we both were in agreement, like, hey, do you want to come overnight? We never met. And she was like, yeah, I'll come over. And she wasn't really my type, but I was like, It's the middle of winter. You just need to hang out with somebody. So she comes over, and we're fooling around, and I think she wanted me to go down on her, and I tried, and I did, and she was like, do you actually know where, like, a clitoris is fire? And I was, like, so taken back. I was like, the fact that she, like, really grilled me like that. I was like, wow. And I was like, yeah, of course. And she's, like, down there for, like, ten minutes, and you didn't really do anything. And I was like, oh, all right. But to her credit, she handled it so well. She was like, do you want me to teach you kind of what I would like? And I was like, my feelings were hurt a little bit. Like I was like, okay, fine. And she kind of just taught me a little bit about the female body, and after, I was like, she doesn't even know who I am. But she probably helped me get over a little hurdle in life where I was like, wow, that was a profound moment in my sexual life. But I think me being humble enough to share that maybe more guys should ask questions or kind of get feedback from a woman, because it was a tough situation to be in, but it made me realize, like, okay, I need to start really understanding what's going on here.

Freya Graf [00:46:28]:

Oh, my God, I love that. I mean, I didn't love the way she first approached that and kind of just made you feel shit and was like, what were you doing down there for ten minutes? Like, that doesn't feel constructive. But then at least she backed it up with some really great coaching and that would serve you well and, like, amazing that you were able to receive that and not just go into a total spin because it is quite common, especially with men. Because and I talk about this almost too much on the podcast, but we've kind of conditioned our men to really attach their sense of self worth and their masculinity and their ego with their sexual prowess and their ability to pleasure a woman and give orgasms. And that sucks because obviously there's so much pressure on men then, and their poor little egos are so fragile. A lot of the time that when we do try to give feedback or guidance or show them how it's done, they're like, I don't need to be shown how it's done. No other women like it. Leave me alone. It kind of just is like, yeah, it's not welcome sometimes. Yeah. So good on you.

Joe Feminella [00:47:30]:

Well, I think yeah, I agree with everything you said, and I think if you could find a woman who has that patience to do that with you, I think that's great. When I met Hannah, at that stage of my life, I was getting better with everything, but she kind of was so amazing, was like, Listen, I think a lot of guys watch porn and they think sex is not what it is, and this is what I like and this is the way I like to operate. And I think just that level of communication goes such a long way, especially when it's with someone like you actually care about. Right. And I think even with her, when I first heard that so you're saying that this wasn't good? I was like, no, it's good. She's like, no, it's great, but we could always make it better and better. And I was like, okay, that's a great way of putting it. And I think as you get to learn somebody and evolve with somebody sexually, that's a beautiful thing.

Freya Graf [00:48:26]:

Oh, my God. Totally. And we love Hannah. This sounds great. Everyone should have someone to just guide them and hold their hand and be compassionate. It's a learnt skill. Sex, pleasure, all of it. Learnt skills. We don't just come out of the fucking womb knowing how to give amazing kind of lingus and where the clitoris is, so we have to learn it somewhere. And unfortunately, most men in particular are learning it from porn, which is not good enough. And, yeah, it's great. It's great that you were able to kind of just swallow your pride and be humble enough to be like, you know what? No, this is a little bit embarrassing, but it's an opportunity to learn and to improve, and that's going to serve me well. So this can be a win win situation instead of a lose lose, because I'm going to be a baby about it and my feelings are going to be hurt and then she's not going to get any pleasure and then it's going to be a weird situation. So good on you, and thank you for sharing that.

Joe Feminella [00:49:18]:

Yeah. And I think just to compound on that, I think it's really nice when a woman gives you that safe space, right, where it's like, hey, if you don't perform well right now, it's totally okay and really making that guy feel comfortable. Because, like you said, right, if a guy's egos hit sexually, that's the end of the night and it could snowball into the future. So I think a really confident woman could just be like, listen, it is what it is. But don't worry about it. This is a safe space. Everything happens. I think that's really cool.

Freya Graf [00:49:57]:

Yeah, it's essential. And it's a massive part of what I teach to couples, to men, to women. It's so important to create that safe space for learning and for growing together. And I get totally heartbroken when I hear this really kind of outdated attitude where the woman's like, man, if he can't just pleasure me and give me orgasms and if he's not good in the bedroom, then I don't waste my time. And I've heard from men that they've been in situations where they might have had difficulties with erections and keeping it and whatever. And the woman's just been like, oh, well, what are you good for then? And just being so awful. And I'm like, okay, cool. Thanks, babe. That guy is now going to have erectile dysfunction for the rest of his bloody life unless he gets a shit ton of sex therapy because you've just created this horrific insecurity. It's awful. It's awful when people stop treating others like humans. And I think, like, there's really no excuse for that. You you've like, you've got to have the compassion and the empathy to recognize that this person's in a vulnerable position and you are in a position to help them learn and grow. And the only way to do that is with kindness and love and gentleness and patience. Yeah. Anyway, big rat. Thanks. I love that story. Really valuable little get pregnant and die. So I'd love to talk a little bit about the slang and I guess the lingo in dating culture because I am super out of loop. I know what ghosting means, but I've read a few of the others, like kitten fishing, zombieing cushioning. And I was like, never heard of any of this. So I was wondering if you could go over a couple of your favorite common terms that are now helpful to understand what kind of goes on in the dating app world.

Joe Feminella [00:51:54]:

Yeah. So Hannah actually did a blog about this last week, so it's fresh on my mind. So I think breadcrumbing is one that comes to mind, right? And I think that's like leaving little nuggets and stringing somebody along with never having and she's probably going to correct me on all this, never having the intention of doing anything with this person. But it's like always making sure you're leaving a little bread around there. Then I think zombieing is a cool it's not cool, but this is a trending one. And I think that's when someone from your past kind of comes back to the dead and it's like you could kind of feel that they're coming back for the wrong reason. And it's like rising back into your life to just cause hell for you. Orbiting, right? Orbiting is when someone's just like staying around your perimeter and they're always in your bird's eye view. But again, he's texting me some of them I'm going to see.

Freya Graf [00:53:05]:

I was curious. Kitten fishing. I was like, what is that? I've never heard that.

Joe Feminella [00:53:11]:

You actually talked to me about kitten fishing the other day. So I think kitten fishing is when you create a profile, but you enhance yourself so much that when you meet that person, it's kind of like catfishing, but yeah, catfishing like, oh, you don't.

Freya Graf [00:53:29]:

Look how you looked in your photos kind of thing.

Joe Feminella [00:53:32]:

Yeah, exactly.

Freya Graf [00:53:34]:

Yeah. Okay, well, that brings me to filters and this whole question. All of our photos are so doctored and photoshopped and filtered these days that is there some way that there can be a function in the app that doesn't allow people to upload photos with all of these? Because people can just look absolutely like a completely different human with all of the apps for altering photos nowadays, and I've never used them, so I'm not super familiar, but it seems like it's really common on social media. So is that like a major problem with dating apps?

Joe Feminella [00:54:11]:

Yeah, I would say that first runs on me. Hasn't implemented that yet, and I don't know if any other dating apps have. I do know that's also really important to me. Right. Especially like, living in La. You kind of see that firsthand. Right. We have all these friends through social media, and then when we hang out with these friends in real life, it's like, wow, the person that you are on social media is not the person you are in real life. And it's sad because it kind of goes back into that dating app world of you're creating the perfect vision of somebody that when you meet them, essentially like they're uglier than they really are, when in reality they're not. Right. It's just they're very different. And I think people need to embrace who they really are more. But when it comes to Instagram and social media and dating apps, I think it's super important. And I know that Sweden actually, I think it's against the law in Sweden and other Scandinavian countries to upload filtered pictures on Instagram. That's fascinating to me because I think it even goes deeper than that. If you see like the Kardashians, right? The Kardashians are super smart, they're very successful, they're great, but they create these filtered images of themselves and then all these little girls are so insecure because they don't look like that filtered image. And yeah, I think it goes hand in hand with dating. Right. And I think hopefully we get to a point where you could tell maybe there's like a way where we could code or there's an algorithm that says, like, filtered photo. Right. You touch the photo clearly filtered. Or, you know, when you're on Instagram and you do filter a photo and then you touch it, it shows the.

Freya Graf [00:55:47]:

Original and then the oh, wow, imagine that.

Joe Feminella [00:55:51]:

Maybe on the app, it could be like you touch it. This is. Where it started.

Freya Graf [00:55:54]:

And that is yeah, you know what, you're welcome to that idea. I reckon you should do it, implement it somehow, some way of coding so that there's because it's just kitten fishing is rife and people could even do it without filters. Obviously. I used to look at people's profiles and then I'd meet up with them and the photos from 15 years ago and like 20 kilos ago or whatever. And I hate to sound shallow, but sometimes physical attraction is important. And also regardless of how well you get along, you feel kind of deceived and misled when you arrive and you're like, I barely recognize you from your photos. Like that wasn't a very accurate portrayal. And yeah, sure, it sounds shallow in vain, but I know most people have a massive issue when that happens to them. So yeah, if we could eliminate the filtering, it's not like it doesn't still go on the whole kitten fishing thing, but fuck, filters are just bad news. So I reckon get your team on to that.

Joe Feminella [00:56:57]:

We're going to work on it. But I don't think it's bad to say that looks matter because looks do matter, right? It doesn't matter and it's not a shallow thing. What are you attracted to? Right? You don't have to be attracted to Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie, but it's like the first encounter that you have with somebody is a physical encounter, right?

Freya Graf [00:57:20]:

Totally.

Joe Feminella [00:57:21]:

That's the first essentially breadcrumb to each other. I don't shallow at all.

Freya Graf [00:57:30]:

Well, yeah, it's the first thing. Like if you were to meet organically in person, that's the first thing that you use to kind of filter out whether you are or aren't interested. And sure, sometimes maybe you're not physically attracted to them at first and you get to know them a bit better and you can become physically attracted to them, definitely. But it is a pretty big component for most people. And yeah, I think it's not really serving anyone to kind of mislead someone about your appearance because it's not going to go down well for you either. Like when they rock up and they're not going to be like, oh well, we just had such deep, great chats on that dating app that I'm really invested in you. Regardless of what you look like, it's going to throw them off. And physical attraction is usually the first port of call when we're kind of out at the bar or whatever.

Joe Feminella [00:58:20]:

And I think that's exactly what you said makes sense, right? People would ask, well, you're kind of pushing two strangers to go on a date in real life. What if that person doesn't look the way they really do? I say, of course, use all the tools that we have to make sure it is, but that person would probably be really embarrassed if they actually went through with it because I feel like it'd be such a small percent of the population. They're like, I'm going to show up to this date and I'm going to fully catfish somebody and it's like super embarrassing.

Freya Graf [00:58:50]:

Yeah. So what are some ways, I guess. Yeah. This kind of leads me into my next question. Because I was in my time using dating apps, I got very adept at looking at profiles and screening them and picking up on little things that in the beginning I didn't pay attention to. But over time, I gained experience and started realizing like, okay, I've got to be more discerning and this profile is all the information I've got. I'm not very good at Googling people and doing social media stalks. I'm just like a total luddite with tech. And this was like eight years ago. And so I got really good at screening profiles and picking up on red flags and just noticing things about their photos that were red flags and told me, oh, they're not going to be for me or they're not going to look like their photos. Because I just went on so many dud dates and had so many disappointments because I was definitely keen to meet up quickly. But also some of them, you would just chat for ages until you met, and then you'd already invested all this time and energy and you'd gotten excited and you were like, oh my God, we've had really good banter. We're connecting really well. And then it would just be even more of a disappointment when I rocked up. So I kind of fine tuned my ability to basically judge a book by its cover, at least on the apps, just out of necessity to save myself from wasting so much time and energy and getting my hopes up. I'm wondering if you have any advice or you know, of any really good ways to kind of like, what are some red flags and what are some green flags, I guess, or like, common ones? Hey, me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it five stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I want to mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labyolunge tote tea toggs. Yes, you heard that right. I even have labia lounge bathers or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my Buy Me a Coffee Donation page, which is actually called Buy Me a Soy Chai Latte, because I'll be the first to admit I am a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser. Like that. And yes, that is my coffee order. You can do a OneSoft donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as three fat ones a month. And I also have a Sunroom profile over on the Sunroom app, as I've mentioned. And I also offer one on one coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way. So every bit helps because it ain't cheap to put out a sweet podcast into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be undyingly grateful if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself. Salty. I'll pop the links in the show notes. Thank you. Later.

Joe Feminella [01:01:59]:

I can only speak off of my experience when I did use them or like, what I see now. And I don't really like terms red flags and green flags because I feel like in context, everyone's story is unique, right? So I don't like generalizing red flags and green flags, but specific to dating apps, I think, in my opinion, what would be a good profile, both from a man and woman, right? As a man, I would say women want to see more than what we look like, right? So in your first photo, it should just be you, right, and not a selfie, not a LinkedIn photo, just you maybe doing an activity, right, where you could see your face and they know what you look like, and then that person is you in the next few photos. And then from there, I think showing your family, showing your friends again, showing you doing things that you like, whether it's sport, vacation, travel, and kind of having genuine prompts and witty prompts. And that's kind of what I used to do from a man's profile and what I would kind of look for on a woman, which is what led me to Hannah, was like, obviously your first photo, I want to see you, but I don't want it to be a selfie. Right? I feel like a selfie, in my opinion, is very self centered, and I never wanted to be with a self centered person, right? So I was like, does this person have a first profile photo that is them doing something, right? And then from there, I'm like, okay, let me see what they're about. And I think the more you fill out about your bio and what you do and what you like is great, because if you're going to meet somebody that actually wants to connect with you, they're going to pay attention to those things. And if you have those things in common, you at least have a few talking points, right? So that's super important to me. And in the photos, I think I always would not go with somebody who had any selfies. I was a big anti selfie guy just because I feel like there's so much more to express through photos. Why are you wasting a photo on just that? And I liked activities. Right? Like, I like if you're maybe playing volleyball. And I think activities are a good way for a woman to kind of be subtle about being proud of her body. Right? Because sometimes maybe women don't feel comfortable about posting a bikini photo or they don't feel or they feel like they're being sexualized. Right. And I think if you could post a photo of you playing like, volleyball and you want to show your body off, I think that's a great way of doing it, in my opinion. And then I think, again, showing your family, showing your friends, big thing for me was like, do you have any kids in your profile? Not kids that are yours, which doesn't matter to me, but are you good with kids? Right? Like, I want to meet and connect with somebody who likes being around kids. So I think all these things are important, in my opinion. If you want to connect with somebody.

Freya Graf [01:04:59]:

Oh my God, just again, that's just my opinion.

Joe Feminella [01:05:02]:

It could be totally not someone else's taste.

Freya Graf [01:05:05]:

Yeah. It was super frustrating when people would have hardly any info or photos on their profile, and I'm just like, how am I supposed do you even care? What are you here for? Give me something. I need something to work with so that I can vet whether we're actually potentially compatible. And I suppose just like in terms of once you get chatting and the behavior and communication on dating apps, is there anything that you kind of feel like would be a big sign? Just cut it off. Like this person isn't I mean, I guess with your app you're kind of negating. It's only that twelve hour window, so it's kind of like not going to go on for ages. So that's kind of good.

Joe Feminella [01:05:49]:

Yeah, I would say again when I would use them, in my opinion, if I was trying to initiate a date with somebody and they gave me a specific place that they wanted to go to and it was very high end, if that's their preference, that's fine. But it's not something that I align with, especially on a first date. It's like, why are you trying to go so exclusive so quickly? And it gives me the wrong impression of what you're trying to do.

Freya Graf [01:06:19]:

So interesting.

Joe Feminella [01:06:20]:

Yeah. Big thing. Like, when Hannah and I connected, even like, through texting, once we were off the app, it was like banter. Right. Like, are you asking me questions back? Is it easy to just communicate with you? And if I would talk to somebody and they wouldn't ask me any questions back, again, you're kind of just answering my questions, and it feels like a job. So it's like, I don't really want to continue to ask you questions. So if the conversation doesn't flow without questions or you're not going back and forth, I would probably be like, this is going to replicate itself in person as it does on the app.

Freya Graf [01:06:54]:

Yeah. It's so much work when people aren't really meeting you in the middle and they're kind of just like giving you one or two at answers and they're not really responding with a question of their own. And it's like, well, this isn't a conversation. Like, why are you making me work so hard for this? You're fucking boring. Big red flags for me. Okay? Amazing. So I'd love to squeeze in the segment TMI. So this is where I ask for a TMI story if you're comfortable sharing one, because, like you were saying earlier, if you're humble enough to share personal stories that might be a bit vulnerable or a little bit embarrassing or whatever, that's really helpful for other people. It can be relatable, it can be inspiring. It can feel empowering for others to hear us speak about these topics that are generally shrouded in stigma or shame or taboo. So with all that said, do you have a TMI story that you feel to share now?

Joe Feminella [01:07:54]:

Is this like sexually or in life?

Freya Graf [01:07:57]:

It can be anything. Often it's sexual, but it doesn't have to be. And it doesn't have to be, like, a funny story. It could be a vulnerable story or just a sad story. It really doesn't matter. You kind of take it where you want to.

Joe Feminella [01:08:10]:

So when I was about 23, I went to Madrid with a friend of mine, right, to go stay with his family. So we go to this bar for New Year's, right? And the waitress doesn't speak English, right? But in Europe, apparently. I don't know if it's the same in Australia, but you don'tip, right? At the bar?

Freya Graf [01:08:31]:

No.

Joe Feminella [01:08:32]:

Yeah. So we went to the bar, and I was tipping her, like, $5, which is normal in the US. And she kept saying to my friend in Spanish, like, who is he? Like, Why does he have a lot of money? Why does he keep tipping me? And he played it along, right? So we pretended like I was like, this big shot. So we end up going on on a date the next night, and again, like, I don't speak Spanish and she doesn't speak English, right? So we're on a date. We're not speaking to each other, and we kind of, like, communicate to go back to her place, right? So we go back to her place and we have sex. And after sex, she was really fascinated with the dollar bills, right? So throughout the night, I gave her a dollar bill because she was like, this is so cool. So after we had sex, we were just laying there, and I had a $5 bill, right? And I was like, hey, you should keep this one too. This is really cool. And she was like, what? And I was like, oh, look, it's a different note. So she's like, Get out. And I was like, what? So she opens her apartment door, and I'm in the middle of Madrid. I don't know where I am. And she's like, Get out. So I'm like, do you want me to sleep on the couch? If you feel more comfortable. I'll sleep on the couch. Like, I'm so sorry. Did I do something wrong? And she was like, Get out. So I'm like, shit, what happened? So now it's four in the morning and the only number I have is my friend's parents. We're staying at his parents house, right? So I'm calling the house and the dad is like, shit, right? So I tell my friend, I need you to pick me up. So he's like, give me a landmark. So I give him a landmark and he comes, picks me up. He's like, what happened? I said, I don't know. We fooled around and then she kicked me out. I don't know if I was really that bad. I don't know what happened. So he's like, yeah. I don't know. So the next morning he texts her because he was speaking Spanish. And he's like, Why did you kick Joe out? He's really curious to do something wrong. And she's like, yeah, he thought I was a prostitute. He tried to pay me for sex. And he goes like, you tried to pay her for sex? I was like, no. And he's like, she said you were giving her money after sex? I was like, yeah, I was showing him what a $5 note was. And I was like, here's like a $5 note. Because she thought she thought it was cool. And he was like, oh, my God, dude, she's pissed. He thinks that you think she's a prostitute. I was like, oh, my God.

Freya Graf [01:10:50]:

It. Oh, my God. Perfect. Who am I? Fuck, that is wild. I can't imagine what it would be like to go on a date with someone where there was such a big language barrier. How does that even go? Yeah, I guess in that circumstance it was more like about the physical attraction.

Joe Feminella [01:11:11]:

Yeah, I mean, I was super young, so it was, like, really cool. And we went out for a drink and I think we both knew where it was going, but so bad. I was like, wait, was I really that bad at sex or did I do something that was disrespectful and yeah. What? I was paying her for the sex and I was like, no, that's not what happened.

Freya Graf [01:11:31]:

Oh, bless. Oh, my God. Well, I can see how that misunderstanding would have happened, but also hilarious. And you're just trying to do a cute thing, so I hope that she believed your friend that that wasn't your intention.

Joe Feminella [01:11:47]:

Yeah.

Freya Graf [01:11:48]:

Oh, amazing. Well, thank you so much for just all of your knowledge and your fun stories. Is there anything that you'd like to kind of leave us with or actually, quick question. Is this available in Australia or just in the US. At the moment? Your app?

Joe Feminella [01:12:05]:

No, I think our top requested country outside of the US. Is Australia. And Hannah has repeatedly told me that she thinks the app would be perfect for Australians because you guys are so forward. So I think she's making a big push for me to open in Australia so that we can move there.

Freya Graf [01:12:29]:

We can add my vote to that. I reckon it would go gangbusters here. And it's obviously very needed. Like, dating app culture here is gross and everyone's feeling pretty disheartened and shitty about it, and there's this kind of resurgence of speed dating events and conscious dating events, and it's just like we need something like this, obviously. But yeah, anything you wanted to leave us with? Any dating tips or any kind of words of wisdom or anything you wanted to just plug before we jump off?

Joe Feminella [01:13:01]:

Yeah, I mean, as far as dating goes, I think it doesn't really matter. You could be looking for whatever you want, right, whether that's a relationship or just to have fun. And there's no right or wrong answer to that. I think it's important that you're just always upfront and intentional with the person on the other side. Right. Just make sure that there's understanding of what your intentions are. Because if your intentions are to just hook up and the other person is okay with that, that's great. But just making sure you're both on the same page before you go on a date or before you communicate, I think that could alleviate a lot of the miscommunication and problems with just dating in general. So my advice to everybody is just communicate more, be more intentional. It's attractive when you communicate. So that's kind of what I want to leave my words of wisdom in the dating world to you. And, yeah, just for people who want to do the most with their life, just take risk, take chances, you never know what could happen, and it's fulfilling to just go down the path of trying things, even if they don't work. So just do what you think you're capable of doing and you never know what could happen.

Freya Graf [01:14:14]:

Yeah. Amazing. Thanks so much, Joe. Awesome. Finn death. So fun having you.

Joe Feminella [01:14:21]:

Yeah, thank you so much. And, yeah, I look forward to seeing this come out. And if people want to find me, where first rounds on Joe is my Instagram and first rounds on me is the app, so thank you so much.

Freya Graf [01:14:31]:

Awesome. Yeah, I'll pop the links to all of that in the show notes for everyone as well, and I will hopefully be first on the list to know when it's available in Australia, and I'll pass that on to the listeners as well.

Joe Feminella [01:14:45]:

Thank you.

Freya Graf [01:14:46]:

And that's it, darling hearts. Thank you for stopping by the labia lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it, just waiting for you to sink back in for some more Double L action next time. And in the meantime, if you'd be a dear and subscribe share this episode or leave a review on itunes, then you can pat yourself on the snatch. Because that, my dear, is a downright act of sex positive feminist activism, and you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatize with this here podcast. Also, I'm always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered or guest suggestions, so feel free to get in touch via my website@freyergraft.com or say hey over on Insta. My handle is Freya graph underscore YMT, and I seriously hope you're following me on there, because, damn, we have fun. We have fun. Anyway, later, label legends. I'll see you next time you ram.