“Don’t Make a Fuss” - Navigating Boundaries as a Woman
Freya Graf:
This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets. Welcome. Welcome, my lovely lumps, or should I say lovely labs? I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge. We're gonna yarn about all things sexuality, womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health, and everything in between. Your legs. Oh. Can't help myself. Anyway, we're gonna have vag-loads of real chats with real people about real shit.
Freya Graf:
So buckle up. You're about to receive the sex ed that you never had and have a bloody good laugh while you're at it. Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in Naarm, and I pay respect to their elders past, present and emerging. Now, if you're all ready, let's flap and do this. Oh my god. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. It's my podcast.
Freya Graf:
I'm leaving it in. Oh, shit. Far out, woman. What's got Sandy in your clam now? Sandy my clam. Hey, my labial love bugs. Welcome back to the lounge. Today, I have Jill, aka sex ed princess, to chat about god. I don't even know.
Freya Graf:
We've kind of just decided to let it let it rip and see where it takes us because we've got, like, 2 of us, like, badass sex educators in the one online online call. I was gonna say in the one room. And, yeah, I just figured we could chat about a few things that are getting sand in our clams. We could tell some stories, you know, maybe talk about some of the most common questions that we get asked as sex educators and the answers to those because we you know, there's no end to those questions that just continue rolling in. And there's often, like, the same ones over and over and over, so we can just whack it in an episode. And then, yeah, maybe I've got a couple little little things around, like, boundaries and stuff that I wouldn't mind chatting about. So stick with us, and let me give you a rundown on Jill. She's a content creator, speaker, grad student, and sex educator.
Freya Graf:
She started as a sex and gender violence peer educator in college and has been doing this work ever since. She's passionate about shame free and inclusive sex education for all people, and her social media content emulates these passions. She also is a body image and eating disorder advocate and incorporates self and body acceptance into her sex education work. Jill aims to be fiercely feminine, unapologetic, and sex positive in all that she does. Welcome, Jill. Pull up a clip cushion. I'm so happy to have you.
Jill:
I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me and for that, like, amazing introduction. I I am so appreciative of, yeah, being in your space. I'm so excited to chat today.
Freya Graf:
Oh, it's all you, baby. I'm, like, so fucking enamored with the way that you show up online. Like, the humor, you know, that's, like, my jam as well. I mean, I've been a fucking hot mess for quite a few months now, so I haven't really been making any funny video content. But back when I was, like, you know, I had my shit a little bit more together and I could be bothered making content for, like, such a cunt of a fucking platform that was constantly censoring me, I loved making, like, humorous, kind of playful, funny videos that were also educational and also, like, political and also kind of, yeah, just, like, thought provoking. And I was just kind of rinsing your page yesterday when I was trying to prepare for this, I mean, this, call. And, yeah, I adore the way that you make really fun humorous videos and also present information and, yeah, like, kind of activist y feminist, but also, like, silly and don't take things too seriously, like, love, love, love, love.
April:
Yeah. No. You got you got all of my basically, all the boxes I'm trying to check. You have just told me that I'm checking them, and I love that. And so I appreciate that so much. But, yeah, in terms of, like, the humor and the silliness that I try to bring, something I always think about, especially being a young person, I'm 24, I am always like, if, you know, 10 10 years ago, like, 14 year old Jill, like, what would get her to pay attention to this information that's important? Right? Like, what would get her to actually stop scrolling and be like, oh my god. Maybe I should know about that? And and a lot of the times, it's like getting that laugh in first. Right? It's being like, oh my god.
April:
That's so me. That's hilarious. So I try to really get into that, like, that's so me type feeling with people And just being authentically myself and vulnerable has been really working, and it gives people laugh. It makes people feel good, and it teaches them stuff. They really should know that no one has ever taught them before, unfortunately.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yeah. Big time. I love that. It's such such a good approach. It's so effective. I definitely was, like, looking at yourself being like, wow, I feel like she must be heaps younger than me because she's really got a grasp on this whole social media trend thing. She's you know, using the the sound.
Freya Graf:
Like, I don't even know what you call any of it. I'm so bad with the apps. But, I was like, fuck. She's nailing this. I need to pay attention and take a leaf out of her book.
April:
And now I literally tell people with social media stuff, I'm always because people ask me that question. They're like, how do you find these sounds? And, like, how do you do the thing? I'm like, literally, I always tell people. I'm like, copy me. I'm not inventing the wheel. I'm like, I am not inventing the wheel. I'm getting it from the other person who got it from the other person, from the person who, like, invented the trend. Right? So I'm always like, we're all helping each other on these apps on this crazy Internet world. And the lovely thing about social media also is that, you know, this idea of competition isn't so competitive because the same person could follow both of us and likely will if they're interested.
April:
So we all kind of uplift and support each other and support the same message. And I always love to be like, hey. Like, this is my friend who talks about this and this specific niche. And, like, I talk about things in this specific intersection and corner of the Internet. Right? And everyone there's no limit to how many people you can follow and support on social media, and that's the beauty of it. So, I always tell people, like, copy my shit. Like, just look and, like, apply your own niche. Apply whatever makes you your soul feel on fire to, like, the sound or, you know, the template, the video template, whatever it is.
April:
There is no also right way to do social media. Some people will say there is, but I am learning. And, you know, what's right now might not be right tomorrow or even, like, in an hour because things are constantly changing, like, every single second. And we're all just trying to figure it out, and we can help each other along the way.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Word. Thank you. I know I cannot keep up. And most of the time, I'm like, look. I've fallen so far behind. I can't even be bothered. I'm a dinosaur now.
Freya Graf:
Whatever. But then I'm like, oh, that's right. I've got my own fucking business, and I actually have to do this shit. So, yeah, this is good. This I I need the fresh energy and the encouragement, and maybe I will just go in and, like, take some of your, the funny little, like, sound bites and templates and stuff. That was so fucking great. I was, like, yeah. How the fuck does she find these? Like, I think because I don't actually scroll social media.
Freya Graf:
I don't use it myself. I'm just on there for business. So, like, I'm not following accounts really that have got all of these cool, you know, whatever to kinda, to sort of use. But, anyway, not here to talk about social media, the bane of my existence. But look at what you're doing on it. So everyone go and follow sex ed princess on Instagram, and I'm sure you're on what? Are you on TikTok? Like, I don't know. Yeah.
April:
I'm on I'm on I'm sex ed princess on just about everything. So I am yes. TikTok. I Instagram is definitely my main platform. I have fun with TikTok too. TikTok's a little bit sillier. And then I'm on threads. I have I'm trying to also get, like, YouTube going as well.
Freya Graf:
Mhmm. Mhmm.
April:
Yeah. No. Some of the platforms, bane of my existence, I totally agree. Other ones, I'm like, this is my shit. We're all just figuring it out as we go.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So speaking of social media platforms, what are some of the, like, common DMs you get from people in terms of, like, help. I've got this issue, or what do you think of this? Or, like, how do you squirt? You know, like, what are the common questions that you field?
April:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god. I've gotten such a range of I was getting so many questions in my DMs. Now I opened up an anonymous question box. So I was like, put your questions here. I'll look at them when I look at them, rather than having, like, 30 DMs, like, sitting in my inbox. And I was like, I can't do this.
April:
Like, I will go absolutely bananas. So I started doing that. Nonetheless, people will still DM me, and I get DMs from I'm in this kind of relationship. Things aren't going the way I want. What do I do? Like, relationship advice. I also get things along the line the most common question I would say I get as a sex educator both on and offline is, am I pregnant? And that is the one that is just like, I can't tell you if you're pregnant. You have to take a test. Even if you had sex and then you took a plan b, but you're also on birth control, but then the plan b was this many hours after, like, I cannot tell you for certain.
April:
I can tell you your chances just about. I can say, hey. Based on this information that we have, this medical knowledge, you know, I I can tell you this. But, yeah, I if for anyone listening, if you ask a sex educator, am I pregnant? They will not be able to answer your question. The only thing that can answer your question is a pregnancy test and, you know, talking to a licensed medical professional. There's a difference between a licensed medical professional and a sex educator. You know, they're similar. Their their circles kind of coincide in a lot of ways, but they're not.
April:
They don't have the same abilities and the same, education and background knowledge. So it's important. You know, sex educators can ask, how do I find out the best birth control for me? When should I take a pregnancy test? What do you recommend? Like, you know, things of that nature to help guide you, but I can't tell you, yep. You're pregnant. You're sure pregnant. So those are kind of, like, the pretty common, like, sexual health related ones, and then I've gotten some fucking out of pocket ones. Someone once was like, if I take a picture of my dick and send it to you, will you tell me if it's normal? And I was like, delete. No.
April:
So I get those 2, which are really fascinating. And I'm like, no. Thank you. And then, of course, I get, like, the the just people trying to, like, slide in because I'm a sex educator, assume that I am, like, a very, like, sexual person, and I wanna have sex with everybody. And that is I'm sure you get that too.
Freya Graf:
Uh-huh. Oh my god. Yes.
April:
Yeah. That is something I know sex educators. Like, people see the word sex and then they immediately, like, this person wants to fuck me. And I'm like, no. It's actually the opposite. I I do not. So it ranges from really kind questions and people really wanting to to find a place to get reliable education to more of, like, a panicky, like, this thing is happening and I'm really scared, am I pregnant type deal, all the way to, can I send you a picture of my dick? So I get just about everything and anything in the DMs, and, yeah, it is it's never a dull moment on my accounts.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. It sounds really similar to my experience as well. There's, like Mhmm. The other people that wanna just want like, that basically need to hire a professional or a medical practitioner, but they want free advice, and they want diagnosis, and it's just like, babes, I can't. Like, what the hell? And then the sleazy kinda dudes that just assume that you must be, like, into absolutely everything, and you're an absolute nymphomaniac kinkstar that's, like, you know, so detailed.
April:
Are. And I'm like, that's so okay with you, but also, like, read the bio. People who are, like, kinksters, like, will say that they are kinksters. Right? And they will be, like, you know, like, DM me, like, for this thing. So, like, it takes it takes a simple read for people to know. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Yeah.
April:
It is
Freya Graf:
it is
April:
so it is so wild. But going back to what you said, people are looking for, like, free information, and that is so true. And not only, like, can we not provide that information a lot of the time, like a diagnosis, but we also shouldn't and doctors online shouldn't either because in this society, like, no one should just be doing, like, free labor. Like, people go, like, doing a in a a
Freya Graf:
Literally, free content creators full time. Like, full time. Do not get paid. Probably, if you averaged out how much I got paid, the amount of hours I put into creating free content Mhmm. Versus the clients I get or whatever, like, 30¢ an hour.
April:
Yeah. It's really minimal, and I think people some content creators make, like, a lot of money, but most of us do not make a lot of money. And then the expectation of doing free labor online for people, like Yeah. You know, we can I can scratch my back? You can, like or you can scratch my back. I can scratch yours type deal. You know? If you put something in my question box, I can answer it for my whole audience. But, like, I'm not gonna start personally DM ing you and taking up my time in the day for you to possibly not even answer, for you to not even follow me. And it's just, like, something I really try to protect my peace online with that too because people might be listening and being like, oh my god.
April:
Jill's such a bitch. Like and I'm like, honestly, yes. Yes. I am. And I'm happy to be sometimes because I'm trying to protect my energy and protect my peace and protect my bank, because I can't just go and answer every single question. But I do love my audience, and I love the people that are kind and supportive to each other and also answer each other's questions in the comment section. Because some people who've been following me for longer are like, oh, Jill answered this question, like, months ago in this video. So then they have the the knowledge to then go spread that further.
April:
So it's like there are beautiful ways to do Internet, and there are not beautiful ways to do Internet.
Freya Graf:
Yep. So agree with that. It is super important to have boundaries, and you can still be loving. And I still respond personally to, like, basically every single DM I get, even if it's just to direct them to, like, a blog post I did or a podcast episode or another sort of free resource that's gonna answer their question. But, you know, giving tailored advice in the DM is like, uh-uh. But something really hilarious that, there's a woman,
Jill:
I think her
Freya Graf:
name her, like, account's called Larnieland. She was she I think she's some sort of sex educator or coach or something, and she was just getting so many unsolicited dick pics as we have all kind of experienced in this industry that she turned it around and she started doing a thing called rate my rooster. And so people send her in their dick pics now, and she rates them and and, like, gives it squeaks.
April:
Yeah. Yeah. I know who you're talking about now. The more you talk about, I didn't know the person's name.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. That's She charges some money to, like, to fucking send her a dick pics and write rate it. So it's like she turned that around, and now he's, like, profiting from that, which is awesome because yeah. I mean, I just thought that was so funny. Whatever.
April:
But she she does.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yeah. I was like, fuck yeah. I get it, girl. Like, that's so clever. So speaking of, like, boundaries, we're talking about, you know, boundaries around our professional, boundaries and things like that. I there's, like, there's there's stuff I wanna chat about, which I'm sure you you educate on as well, especially since you're working with, like, a younger demographic and you were doing some stuff with, like, you know, students, like, I just think boundaries are it, you know, so so so important. And, like, we're not naturally great at them, especially, like, people with female bodies, like, really are kind of programmed to, like, have really flaky, if not no boundaries, and be people pleasing and, you know.
Freya Graf:
So something, I like that gets sand in my clam that I remember happening really frequently when I was younger. It definitely hasn't happened, like, in recent years because I'm I'm a grown ass woman and I've got my shit together in terms of boundaries and what I will and won't put up with. But it's funny how insidious it can be and that even now, like, little things can slip past the goalie. And then I'll be like, oh, woah. Hang on. That's, like, way past my boundary. How did that happen? Like and then I kinda be I would be with a guy, and I'd You kinda be I would be with a guy, and I wouldn't be wanting to actually, like, go any further than maybe I wouldn't even wanna kiss him, but I would feel like, oh, like, you know, we're here now, and I probably should just, like, I guess, just throw him a bone, and I'll I'll, like, have a little kiss or whatever. But, like, I've explicitly said, like, I'm not I don't wanna do anything else.
Freya Graf:
Like, that's not why we're here. Like, it was agreed that, like, we were just gonna have a cuddle and, like, company. But, like, I just because you're in my bed doesn't mean, like, we're gonna have sex. And I've said that. And they've been like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. But then, yeah, like, we'll kind of go for the kiss, and then I'm like, oh, okay. And then start with the hands, and I'll push their hands away and be like, no. Like, what are you doing? And then they're like, sorry, sorry, sorry, and act all like, oh my god. Yep. Totally, totally. But then just get carried away again and again and again. And because, like, in the past, I remember these situations, like, whenever I would be like, hey.
Freya Graf:
They would be so, like you know, they'd say the right things, and they'd be apologetic and be like, yep. Totally. Like, it's all good. And then just, like, find a new little sneaky insidious way to, like, start to, like, try to escalate things, even though I've said multiple times, like, this is the line. But then it would kind of, like, get it it would kinda wig me out because I'd I would, like, keep getting pushed that little bit further each time before I would before it would feel like it was enough for me to go, boy. Hang on. Stop it. So each time, he's gone that little bit further.
Freya Graf:
And then next minute, I'm, like, way past my initial boundary and that that line I drew in the sand at first and going like, what the fuck? And then losing respect for myself because I'm like, oh, I can't believe I let him do that even though, like, you know and, like, how did how did I how did this kind of happen? And it's just because, you know, that initial boundary wasn't listened to or respected and we kinda get gas lit and, you know, sort of happened. I've talked about it on the podcast in the past when I was interviewing a pro, dominatrix. And I talked about when I, like, put my toe in very briefly to try to do that work. And men would be just, yeah, really, like, pushing my boundaries to test, like, how far they could get. And me being indoctrinated as, like, a woman who needs to kind of people please and put other people's needs first. And more importantly, like, not not make a scene or not make a fuss or not not make things awkward or uncomfortable. I would be pushed sort of at that little like, maybe a few extra seconds past, like, you know, him touching me in a way I didn't want. I would just wait that few extra seconds before it got to the point where I was like, wait.
Freya Graf:
Hang on. Like, no. I said, you know and it's just so insidious how it can kind of, like, creep past your your guard. And because we're so reluctant to make a scene or to, like, make a big deal out of something, And because we're gaslit when we do by them being like, oh my god. Yeah. No. Sorry. Like, oh, to and then we're like, oh, maybe I imagine that he's like an absolute fuckhead because he's being so nice now, and he's, like, so apologetic.
Freya Graf:
But then we'll kinda you know? Have you kind of, like that was a big, like, blah blah blah blah blah. But have you experienced this sort of thing where, yeah, it's your boundaries aren't listened to, and then you kind of start, like, being harsh on yourself as well for, like, allowing stuff to go further, and then looking back afterwards and being, like, what the fuck? How did I you know?
April:
Yeah. So I have oh my god. I have so many thoughts. Where do I even start? So the first thing I was thinking when you said a lot of things that, like, we a lot of the times as women are, like, these people pleasing, like, we don't wanna upset. And in a patriarchal society as women, our autopilot is to please men and to not make a fuss. And that is something I think about often and not wanting to be on autopilot anymore because I think for a long time I was as so many of us are slash were. And that is our brain will often return to that, and then we'll snap out of it and go, oh my god. But my boundaries.
April:
And then there's this there's this tug there's this tug and pull of, like, my boundaries, but also the comfort in the autopilot of patriarchy, which is, like, not rocking the boat. Doing, you know, what a man says. Also, because to bring in another aspect, some for a lot of people, sometimes it's a safety concern. Because if you set that boundary sometimes, it's like, will that boundary be respected? Am I being put in harm's way by putting my foot down right now and saying no? And for a lot of people, that's a real concern. And sometimes setting a boundary isn't as simple as setting a boundary, and I wanted to bring up that thing too for a lot of people to think about.
Freya Graf:
Hey, baby babes. Sorry to interrupt. I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. There you'll find extra bits and bobs like freebies, behind the scenes, or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the podcast. They'll also be, hopefully, inspiring, thought provoking conversations and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a really supportive, educational and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me and a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge group in Facebook, and I'll see you in there.
Freya Graf:
And now back to the episode.
April:
Something else when you were talking that I really started thinking about was this one time this guy, like, we were hooking up, and he like, we kinda stopped hooking up, and we were, like, chit chatting. And he was like and then he started talk and then he was like, well, like, are you gonna keep going? Like, you're blue ball like, he was like, I have blue balls.
Freya Graf:
Oh.
April:
And this idea
Freya Graf:
of Oh my god.
April:
Literally that, is my exact reaction. And I remember I got all my stuff and I left. And this was in college, so I was, like, in a dorm room. And this was also after, like, for background, I was, like, in an abusive relationship before this. My first really serious relationship was an abusive relationship, where there was, like, manipulation on a lot of levels, you know, emotional abuse, financial abuse in some ways, as well as, some forms of, like, sexual abuse. So there was a lot I would say before that interaction, So my first experiences with sex and relationships, are, I would say, are very unique in a lot of ways, to most people who are like, oh, like me and Jimmy, like, you know, we dated in middle school and we kissed, and, like, that was my first experience. Like, I did not have a serious relationship until this experience in college. So I almost was I was on that autopilot kind of of patriarchy and, like, I'm gonna do whatever this man says, and I'm going to listen to this man because society and patriarchy says that I am worthy in, like, in respect to the man I am with.
April:
Like, so I'm worthy right now because someone else desires me. So I need to do whatever
Freya Graf:
I
April:
can to hold on to that. And so
Freya Graf:
validates my existence and my worthiness as a woman. Yeah.
April:
Yes. Exactly. That's a that's kind of exactly what it was. So, like, I almost was like, throw all the boundaries out the window. I need to be desired right now and have this experience. And then I did and it ended up, of course, like, becoming abusive and, like, harming me further. So then after that relationship, once I started to have other experiences and I formed other relationships, I hooked up with other people, I think my boundaries were extremely firm, and I was kind of always on, like, the lookout. And then with this person who was like, oh, you're blue ballzing me.
April:
I was like, fuck you. And I just got up and I left because I was like I was like, I don't want this to happen. But something I always think about is how much young people could benefit. Like, I should not have had to learn by going through that experience. And it's such a shame that so many of us, like, literally, 1 in 3 women globally are experience some kind of sexual assault or sexual violence in their lifetime. And I'm always thinking about how, like, 30% of women should not have to have this experience, but often it tends to be young women too. And that's not how we should be forced to learn how to create these boundaries. Like, there should be better systems of education so that these things can be prevented, which is exactly why, like, I do what I do, and, like, people like us, a lot of the time, end up doing what we do.
April:
So, yeah, men pushing the boundaries, like you're saying, is like, you you told an age old story that, like, so many women I think more women than not can say, this dude just kept pushing and pushing, especially if you're, like, walking through the club or you're walking somewhere, and you're like, this guy won't stop staring at me. He won't stop looking at me. Like, I'm moving. I'm trying to live my life. And, he's following me, something like that. So many women can speak on that whether it's during a hookup, whether it is something even platonic, whether you're at a party and someone, like, grabs you and you're like, like, no. Like, it's just so many there are constant moments where your boundaries are impeded on by men. And then you are forced to ask yourself the question, which I hate that women are forced to do.
April:
Like, oh, should I say something? Is this gonna harm me? Am I rocking the boat? Am I is it even the question that that's come up in my head too, is it even worth it? Yes. Is it even worth it right now? Or should I just process this, like, in therapy in my own time? Is it worth it to cause this scene? And, like, that is it, like, pains me so much that, like, these we don't even think, like, let me, like, let me stop this. It's, like, to protect ourselves, it's worth asking all these other questions. But, yeah, those are some of the things as you were telling that story I was thinking about, but, yeah, it's an ongoing endless conversation. Ugh. Yeah.
Freya Graf:
Absolutely. And even just you talking now has sparked, like, a bunch of other things that I wanna say. But, I will I wanna slot in the segment get pregnant and die. Mhmm. Oh, and also, I have a whole episode on Blue Balls, so people go listen to that. There's, like, a it's a sand in my clam episode I did with a friend of mine, and we talk about, yeah, like, blue balls and what a fucking bullshit. Converse that is. But, anyway, just more coercion.
Freya Graf:
So do you have a a story for us about your sex education? Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and Don't have sex in a missionary position. Don't have don't have sex standing up. Just don't do it. Promise?
April:
Something that always comes to mind, which is a pretty unique experience, specifically, like, I would say, you know, in the United States. Like, you know, sex education, laws and legislation, and also just the culture around sex is very different here than a lot of other places in in the world. It's very, like you know, you have to kinda figure it out yourself. You're watching porn. You're looking on the Internet. Your parents don't talk to you about it, but when they do, you're, like, 14. And it's the when a man and a woman love each other very much, the birds and the bees conversation, yada yada y reason, like, I do what I do, I always say, is because of my mom. She always talk to me, and still we talk about it openly about sex and sexuality.
April:
And, like, when I got on birth control, like, she was with me at my appointment. She came into, like, so many of my gynecology appointments to help me ask questions. I remember one time I was hooking up with someone, and then the next day, I got a UTI. And she like, I felt, like, the UTI, like, the burning and the I was like, oh my god. This is the worst thing ever. And I told her, and she, like, took me to the doctor. She was always, like, my support person with everything, but specifically with sex and sexuality. And she kind of almost gave me this, like, this feeling of, like, wanting to be an educator like this and be like, I wanna spread this knowledge.
April:
Like, I'm so lucky and privileged to have such a supportive mother, that I want other people to feel that way too. So I most of the sex education that I do remember, a lot of it is is from, like, my mom. I remember just asking flat out when I was when I was younger, like, what is what is sex? And, like, how does someone get pregnant? And she just answered my question honestly and truthfully. And, also, I had older siblings. My brother is 10 years older than me, and my sister's 7 years older than me. So I remember watching them kind of just navigate, like, relationships and getting older, going through puberty, and, like, from the side. I was always like, interesting. My mom also got me and my sister when we both got our first period.
April:
She got us a cake. So that was, like, kind of a tradition. Yeah. She, like, celebrated us getting our period. So
Freya Graf:
I see.
April:
Something so that is, like, the most some of those moments of my mom are some of the most remarkable ones, and I think that kinda catapulted me into this career. But, also, I do remember in high school sex ed, we, were talking, like, briefly about abortion. And, for background, I have, like, worked at Planned Parenthood. I've been an abortion provider, and, like, I've always been really passionate about abortion rights, and my mom has too. And that was, like, kind of a value that she instilled in me. And I remember getting in a heated argument with another student in high school in this class about abortion rights and about, you know, bodily autonomy and things of that nature. And that is something that always sticks out in my head. Like, at the moment, I was just kind of like, this is what I do.
April:
Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna stand up and fight someone about this. But I look back now, and I'm like, wow. Like, that was really, like that would've definitely been, like, the intro to, like, a book about me of some kind or, like, whatever. If someone I always like to think if there was a movie about me or something, like, what would the opening scene be? Me standing up in, like, high school health class and, like, pointing out someone and be like, you don't know what you're talking about. These are the facts about abortion. Blah blah blah. Like, abortion is a human right. And I'm like, that that would be my opening scene.
Freya Graf:
But yeah. Yes.
April:
Yeah. Yeah. But oh my goodness. Yeah. Young me and high school me and having my mom and and us having conversations even now has definitely been my some of the the most monumental moments of, like, my my sexual development and my and my life in sex education.
Freya Graf:
True. That is so incredible. That is yeah. That is quite uncommon, and you're so fortunate to have had that as a foundational kinda piece of your, yeah, your sexual education and development and exploration. Like, that's phenomenal. I'm so stoked for you. And I love the the image of you just, like, in class being so impassioned and, like, little little activists already.
April:
Oh my god. Literally, that was that was me. And, like, I think, like, I it's so interesting because I think about this now. Like, I always wanted to be the girl that I always wanted to be the popular girl and, like, the girl everybody liked and, like, that pretty girl that, like, you walk down the hallway and everyone stops and is like, oh my god. She is smart. She's pretty. She's nice. Everybody loves her.
April:
And then I grew up. And I look back now, and I, like, I, like, talk to my younger self. I'm like, Jill, honey. You that was never gonna be you. And it's okay because the way you are, though, is still, like, special, and I always think about that. Because it's like, I almost feel like I was born to, like, stand up and cause a ruckus. Like, that's just what I've been doing forever, I feel like. I was always loud and talking, and I would stand up and fight.
April:
And I remember, being so I grew up in New Jersey. So that's I grew up probably, like, 40, 45 minutes from New York City. And I remember the day that, Trump, like, won the presidency in 2016. I was a senior in high school. And the next day, there were you know, I went to a pretty there were some, like, more conservative people at my high school, but I remember, like, they were playing, like, his, like, acceptance speech and, like, Hillary Clinton's, like, you know, her kind of just accepting that she she didn't win. And I remember, like, being at a table, like, with some of my other friends and, like, talking about it and just, like, yelling at the TV and being like, this is so fucked up. And, like, I was, oh, I was never gonna be this, like, popular, liked girl because I never was someone who was, like, just gonna go with the flow. I wasn't.
April:
And I always I always was like, oh, I wanna be here so bad, and now I'm grow I'm grown. And I'm like, I'm so glad I wasn't, and I'm not. Because I never would have been me, and having been like that would be sacrificing so many pieces of me.
Freya Graf:
Totally. Totally. Totally. Yeah. I'm very similar. Like yeah, was always a little bit unusual and different and very, very happy to make a stand or speak up about something. Like, you had a had a lot of fight in me, I suppose, which, you know, isn't the easier path, like, the people pleasing and they're just kinda going along and and, like, the chameleon just blending in and belonging would have been definitely easier and served me in different ways. But, yeah, it wouldn't have grown nearly as much.
Freya Graf:
And, I mean, it's not it's not possible for people like us to to betray ourselves and abandon our our sort of authentic selves to the extent that we do just kinda like, what's the word? Assimilate assimilate with, like, our peers, you know, in high school and stuff.
April:
So Yeah. Yeah. So many of us, like sex educators, I there's so much, like, camaraderie between so, like, in people in this field, whether it is sex education or even people who are in, like, the health care field, like doctors, nurses who do this kind of work, people who do sex work. Right? Like, all of us have, like, that kind of passion and fire. But it's so interesting because I think about myself in that moment, but then I also think, you know, we were we were talking about, like, a little towards the beginning, maybe, like, 15 minutes or so ago. Like, I kind of let so many I didn't, like, have boundaries, and I let so much of myself fly out the window in an abusive relationship. And I think, you know, I can picture listeners kinda being like, wait, but she just said that she was like she would at this point in her life, like, she would do anything for a like, the acceptance, like, of a man. And I think, like, both of those things can exist at the same time.
April:
Like, there were certain things that I was so confident in fighting for and not kind of, like yeah. Like, you were saying, like, assimilating. But then we all are, like, succumb to this patriarchy, and it's like once a man is, like you know, gives you attention and you feel acceptance from that, like, it's this experience of, like, I have to let go of some things because this person like, to to to feel some kind of safety and acceptance. And then,
Freya Graf:
you know,
April:
the the cycle of abuse kind of plays in there. And then
Freya Graf:
It's never it's never as like, it's it's a it they aren't mutually exclusive, like these versions of yourself or and different phases of your life. And, you know, it literally it could just be like, I feel like people and it gets all, you know, very, like, victim blaming around, like, stuff with, you know, domestic violence or abusive relationships because it's, like, you know, how could you stay? And I think people who haven't experienced it or witnessed it don't understand, like, it doesn't start out like that, and they could just somehow get you at a moment where, like, you are either vulnerable, your self esteem is low, they can meet a certain need, make you feel a certain way, they can act, you know, amazingly for a period. And then once they've kinda got their hooks in, the coercive control starts, the manipulation, the you know, because, like, you know, talk a lot with people who have been in narcissistic relationships with narcissistic abuse. Yes. It's so insidious. It's so, so, so clever and, like, adept at manipulating you and pushing the right buttons and, like, knowing when and when not to, like, do certain things, push you a certain way. Like, it's it's so much more complex and nuanced than people maybe understand who haven't experienced it. And I think that's another vicious thing is, like, when you have, you can end up like the inner inner misogynist in all of us, women, that's been kind of indoctrinated into us, plus, like, this, like, part of us that starts gaslighting ourselves because a good narcissist or or someone who's quite good at manipulating will manage to hardwire you with an inner gas lighter, so that they don't have to do all the work themselves.
Freya Graf:
They can kinda just, like, let you fuck yourself up. Yes. Like, those things are really, really tricky to get out of that loop. And, you know, then we end up feeling really, we've we we're hard on ourselves. We're like, I thought I was smarter than this. I thought I was, like, more empowered. I thought I was more of a feminist. Like, how, you know, how did this happen to me? But, like, you know, especially with narcissists, like, they they pick clever, intelligent, empathetic people as their victims.
Freya Graf:
And, like, I did an episode on narcissism with with an expert, and it was really interesting. She works with women in particular who have been with narcissists. And, yeah, she's like, they're all very clever, beautiful, empathetic women. They're not idiots. Like, they're not just vulnerable, easy targets, like, at all. But the people that are the ones doing the abuse are fucking good at it and they are clever. Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and 5 star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab.
Freya Graf:
And the more people who get to hear it, the more people I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster, and it's really easy to just quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving 5 stars for the show on Spotify or even better, writing a written review and leaving 5 stars over on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're a real overachiever, you can do them both. That would be mad. If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use g rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates. Lame. Anyway, I would personally recommend doing that right now while you're a member just to get on top of it and let me know you're with me on this journey. Thanks, gang.
Freya Graf:
Enjoy the rest of the epi. So something that, I wanted to, like, make sure it's a little story I don't think I've told on this podcast, but it was it's really, like, illustrating something you were mentioning around, like, not knowing if it's even worth it to, like, make a fuss, basically. And then something to second guess ourselves. I'll be like, oh, is it that bad though? Like, maybe maybe it's not bad enough to make it fuss or, like, it's Mhmm. It's bad enough to make it fuss, but, like, is it actually worth it? Like, is it so, I was at an event, like, a kind of big indoor, like, warehouse party. There was a guy who maybe I have told I think I have told this on the podcast at some point. Anyway, he he was, like, really making people feel uncomfortable, making women feel uncomfortable. I literally watched him just like fucking, like, migrate around the dance floor, like choosing a target, following them, like trying to, you know, like talk to them and flirt and then pressure them.
Freya Graf:
And he kinda tried it on me. He tried it on a friend, and I was just like, what the fuck? But he was like, he seemed almost a bit dumb. Like, he seemed harmless because you were like, wow. Does this actually work for you, dude? What the hell? Like, no. But then it was like, but is this harmless when he's, like, literally, like, making everyone feel uncomfortable, making us have to move around the dance floor to try to avoid him, to try to get out of a conversation with him. Like, no one was able to everyone was just being polite, and so no one was being like, yo, dude, shut the fuck. Like, I don't wanna talk to you. Go away.
Freya Graf:
Because, obviously, we were all kinda just, like, not wanting to make a scene, not wanting to be too mean because it was like, oh, maybe he's harmless and maybe he's just not very socially aware. But over the and then I saw him a week later at the same venue at a different party, and he was doing the same thing. And I was like, oh, fuck no. Like, uh-uh. Because I thought about it a bit more, and I was like, what the hell? I I kind of just feel like even if it is harmless, it's still like he should be told that that's not the way to go about it. Because he was like, he would just, like, talk to you for, like, 2 seconds and then be like, do you wanna get out of here? And I was like, no. What gave you that impression? Like but it was almost laughable that it would like, his approach was just like, surely that never works. But then, you know, like, I'm thinking, oh, he's potentially hanging around till the end when people are intoxicated or they don't have their wits about them as much.
Freya Graf:
Maybe he's picking off, like, someone who isn't with their friends. Maybe he's waiting out the front of the venue, like, to because he was really, really persistent. And that's when it started feeling like, oh, no. Maybe this isn't harmless. Maybe this is a whole fucking facade that he's got going on. Yeah. And, like, even if it is, like, quote unquote, like, from his perspective harmless, like, he's not actually, like, strategic or anything, He's still so persistent and so able to ignore people's rejection that, like, that could still wind up with him kind of getting his way with someone who isn't in their right mind to agree to that situation. And, and either way, it made the dance floor an unsafe space because we were just all, like, so fucking bothered.
Freya Graf:
And I was just sort of watching, and I would go up and chat with the women that he'd been talking to and be like, yo, is he bothering you? What's happening here? And every because I was kinda teetering on, like, saying something, and I'd I'd said to him, like, hey, dude. Like, this is actually really not cool. Like, I've seen you going up to every woman here. No one wants to go home with you. They're not interested. We are here to dance. You can't just go up to people and be like a sex pest because, like, they're not into it and you have to listen to that know and, like, leave them alone. And he was just there alone, like literally just trying to, like, pick off women.
Freya Graf:
And he was, yeah, absolutely, like, not not receiving my feedback and would keep doing it. And then every woman I spoke to was like, yeah. Like, it's annoying and, like, no, I'm not interested. But, like, you know, he seems nice and it seems harmless. Like that that thing every time. Oh, it's just harmless. And, like, yeah. Like, it's it's bothering me, and it's annoying.
Freya Graf:
But, like, I'll just move somewhere else on the dance floor. Or I'll just, like, make some small talk and that, you know, like, say no, like, 50 fucking times because, like, I don't wanna be rude. And I was like, woah. What the fuck? And so I, I ended up, like, speaking to one of the bouncers and getting him kicked out, but that was such a process for me. And there was another woman who had also just been like, I've been chatting with and she's, like, this is fucked. Like, we were literally unable to be present with our friends and at the party because we were just watching him and, like, almost feeling, like, protective of the women that he was going after and just, like, watching his sort of movements around. And it was just, like, such a yucky vibe. And we were both, like, should we, like, say something to the bouncers? Should, like, what? But, like, firstly, none of, like, our boyfriends or, like, you know, the guys were saying anything to him because that's another, like, you know, no, Thomas.
Freya Graf:
We don't wanna make a fuss, like and no one wants to, like, say anything. And then secondly, like, even the bouncer was just, like, like, needed more proof from us that he was, like, you know and so that was, like, making us gaslight ourselves because we were like, oh, like, we yeah. We thought it was an issue, but, like, maybe we're just making too big of a deal of this or something. And then I was like, no. Actually, like, no. Fuck this. Like, get him out of here. Like, this is a joke.
Freya Graf:
No one can just relax and enjoy themselves on this dance floor right now. And he did eventually get kicked out, but it was, like, right at the end of the night. And, and it was crazy watching that process with me and these other women and, like, just the amount of, like, convincing before we got to the point where we were like, hang on. No. Like, it is worth making a fuss right now because we didn't get that, like, social support from the boys. We didn't you know, a lot of the women were like, no, it's harmless. It's like whatever. And so yeah.
Freya Graf:
I feel like most of the night, we were kinda like, oh, maybe we're just making a big deal, and it's bothering us more than it should or something. We don't wanna, like, yeah.
April:
The fact that it is I'm thinking about because I was right before you said, like, you know, the like, making a fuss, I was like, it's this fact that, like, a fuss has to be made. And it's not, like, saying something to a person and, a, they stop, or, b, everyone believes you and allow like, this person is escorted out. So much of or women are so accustomed to not being believed or being gaslit or just, like, experiencing, like, microdoses of harm that aren't, like, major shots to us. So we're just like, it's easier to deal with the the the those micro doses of harm because we're so used to it. And then sometimes the larger fuss can be more traumatic because then people are like, oh, well, you wore a really slutty outfit. So why aren't you expecting that men are gonna come up to you? And then it gets flipped on us every single time. And that is also something I thought about in that situation. And so many of those women sounded, like, so kind.
April:
They're like, he seems he seems nice. Like, we assume the good, and we like to assume the good. And we just continue moving about because if we don't, more harm could be done to us, which is a shame in, like, in the grand scheme of us trying to, like, prevent this bullshit from happening. So, it's like an age old tale. It's like these, yeah, these stories that we're telling and we're talking about are like I'm sure someone is gonna listen and be like, yep. Been there. Yep. Been there.
April:
Been been lived through that one. Like, it's just so I'm I always think I'm unique, and, like, my experiences are so unique. And then I go on TikTok, and then I'm like, wow. Everyone has, like, lived such similar experiences because, like, women don't get a fucking break in a lot of ways. And I always like to mention, like, as white women, we have so much privilege, specifically women of color and trans women experience such a brunt of negative and harmful experiences. So it's like women in general, yes, but even more so once you get into more of those intersections. And it's such a fucking shame, and it's disgusting and awful. And it's like, there's so much I wish I could change, but, like, this everything is so systemic and layered and, like, historic that it's like, we're doing the work.
April:
Like, people like us are doing the work, but not enough people are doing the work.
Freya Graf:
And a
April:
lot of people aren't listening still. We're like I always say something I always say as a sex educator to people is I feel like I'm standing on top of this mountain, and I'm screaming. And there are people, like, there are people all around. Like, I have a megaphone, and just, like, nobody hears me. And I'm like, me and, like, my fellow sex sex educators and professionals are standing on top of this mountain, like, screaming, like, there's a fire or, like, something's gonna explode. Like, something is happening, and everyone's just walking about their day. And I'm like, when will people hear me screaming on this mountain? Right? Like, how many how many lost lives? How much trauma is it gonna take for people to hear me? But that's, like, a metaphor I always use that it's like, we all shouldn't have to scream on this mountain. It should've been just, like, one of us, and then everyone would've been like, okay.
April:
Yeah. Like, it's all like a boy who cried whole situation, and it's, yeah, it's it's truly awful.
Freya Graf:
Oh my god. That's such a good way of describing it. I totally feel like that. And it's so hard because, like, often, like, really what needs to be happening is, like, women banding together. And also, like, the other men, like, being actual allies and not being, like, so confrontation or, like, make a fuss averse. No one wants the drama, blah blah blah. But it's like yeah. Like what you said about the fact that we even have to make a whole dramatic thing and make a fuss is fucked because it deters us from doing it.
Freya Graf:
And it's it's because we've got, like, all of these little steps that are leading up to even having to like, if we were listened the first time and believed the first time, if we, like, told someone else and, like, the other people around us, we're just, like, absolutely got your back. Like, if you're feeling that way, if you're feeling uncomfortable, think no more about it. Don't gaslight yourself. It's not okay. If you feel that way, it's not okay. Let let's do something about this, you know, but that doesn't fucking happen. We've gotta convince people. We've gotta convince ourselves.
Freya Graf:
We've gotta weigh out whether it's worth it. There's, like, you know, like, a bit of a risk and reward thing going on, and that's just basically to fucking exist. Like, it's such a luxury to just, like, have a dance floor feeling, like, safe and not worrying. Like, it's just such bullshit that it needs to, you know, it needs to like, we know that if we wanna create a change in that moment, it's gonna be a shit fight. It's gonna be a whole fucking thing. And then we're gonna feel because I was, like, still second guessing myself and feeling, like, guilty that I got this guy kicked out. Because what if he was well meaning and he was just, like, you know, lonely? And I'm like, woah. Woah.
Freya Graf:
Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Like, it's so fucked.
Freya Graf:
It's so fucked that your brain does that.
April:
Yeah. Yeah.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. So I hear you. I feel like very relatable experience.
April:
Yes. I love what you said 2 seconds ago bringing in men into the equation. And I always I always say this to people, and they're like, Jill, that's a fucking hot take. But I always say to people, like, men are useful in, like, these movements, whether it's feminism, sexual assault prevention, gender based violence prevention. Like, everyone's like, fuck men. Like, why are men why do men exist? Like, all men are trash. And I'm like, okay. I hear that because men have traumatized us, and men can be of great use and benefit.
April:
And I always say this, and there's something so I study human sexuality. I'm getting my my PhD in human sexuality. And there's something there's, like, a subfield within that that is, like, masculinity studies. And people, like, dedicate their whole career to studying the ideas and toxicities of masculinity. And toxic masculinity hurts everybody. It hurts women, but it also very much hurts men, especially men who aren't seen as the quote, unquote alpha male. And there's this idea of the man box where it's, like, you have to be all of these specific features to fit in the box. If you don't fit in the box, fuck you.
April:
Forget you. You don't belong, like, and we're gonna we're gonna judge you.
Freya Graf:
Yes. So it's something
April:
I always think where it's, like, if people of all genders, including men, get behind, like, these movements and are dedicated, it is so helpful. And, specifically, men because men and white men, even more specifically, white men with with power and money, even more specifically, which tend to be the men that do the most harm, unfortunately, if those men take action and get behind some of these movements, they can create such monumental and instrumental changes because they can set a precedent for so many other men who are afraid to leave that box, who are held by these standards. Right? And I think we're starting to see that, like, people stepping outside of this man box and making changes. Even, for example, I believe in NCAA, like, basketball player, got was, like, painting his nails. And that is something that is, like, seen as not traditionally masculine. And even small things like that make monumental changes. And sometimes, also, I say men are useful because men have the power. I always think this is so funny.
April:
Like, when like, I always say men have the power to simply shut the fuck up because men love to take up space, and men can do an amazing thing by stepping to the side and uplifting queer people, women of color, trans women, like, marginalized people can be uplifted if men simply do their part by shutting the fuck up. So Yeah. Men can have, like, role. They have a place in these movements, and they can do good whether it be they set they they're they set an example to other men, and they become this this role model for other men to be like, we don't have to be confined by this anymore because it confines us and it confines other people as well as just amplifying other voices and being like, I'm gonna take a step back. And I think not a lot of people I think women put a lot of the burden on ourselves and because we trust ourselves. We know we're gonna do the work. And I wish we can get to a point, and I always I'm like, it would it would be such a great it'll be such a great day when, like, people of all genders, men, women, and, you know, I like to say men and nonmen because men tend to be the ones straight cis men tend to be the ones, like, on the higher end of the hierarchy and then non men, which includes, you know, trans men, women, non binary people, genderqueer people, people, basically, that are not the cis men. Yeah.
April:
We can, like, walk hand in hand and, like, make shit happen and you know, because the shit you're saying over there, the things that men are doing are not only oppressing us, but oppressing each other. And, like yeah. So I love that you brought up, like, I wish men would, like, say the fucking thing that needs to be said because they can make some monumental changes, especially on the not only on the larger scale, but starting on the small scale where you just, like, talk to another man so that we don't fucking have to do that because it puts us in more danger. Like, talk to that creepy guy if you're noticing something, and just be like, hey. What you're doing is not cool, and you're helping, like, so many other people in that room. But that's my that's my soapbox about masculinity studies and the role of men because I don't think people talk about people talk about, like, what men can do enough, and instead we kinda push them out. And I don't like exclusionary politics. I'm like, what can we do to bring everybody in and make it so that everybody has a place at the table? And we can amplify people who have been pushed away before and make space for more people.
April:
So, yeah, that's that is my soapbox.
Freya Graf:
Love it. Love it. Love it. Love it. Yeah. Like, a 100% agree. One little thing I was thinking that's, like, such a it's just complex is, like, I know some men who, because there's this stupid fucking gendered well, I mean, there's a whole gendered thing around, like, oh, you can't punch a girl, but, like, you can get into a fight with a guy. And so, you know, boyfriend or a male friend will be reluctant to sort of say something or get involved because they are vulnerable to being bashed.
Freya Graf:
I mean, we're vulnerable to being fucking raped, but, like, yeah, like, it's almost like I've had things happen where I have wanted to say something, make a scene, do something, punch a guy. But I've been with a male friend or a boyfriend who I knew would not do well in a fight, and we were outnumbered. And I was like, well, if I make a scene, nothing's gonna happen to me necessarily, but he's gonna get bashed. So then it's like, you know, that's a whole other layer that, like and it's just fucked that there's even, like, you know, that level of, like, toxic mask and, like, violence and stuff. And it's rare that, you know, that would be a situation these days in the circles that I'm kind of in. But, like, in certain places and environments, like, that's another consideration. Like men who might wanna say something actually just can sense that the people that are involved, you know, they're dangerous and they're violent, and it's not gonna go down well if another man opens himself up to, like, yeah. Anyway, so it's just it's it's complex, and it fucking sucks.
April:
Everything is so complex. Like, I wish it would I wish it were simpler so then people wouldn't feel so deterred from having these conversations because it really causes people and I found that with sexuality and and sex education in general because people are like, if I don't understand it, I feel stupid, and I don't wanna be a part of it. And that's especially something I hear with, like, the LGBTQIA plus education in conversation. Something I always say is, like, you don't have to fully understand someone or something, but you can respect someone or something and, like, know what's right and what's wrong. Yeah. You don't have to be a queer scholar and, like, recite queer theory and write a thesis to be like, hey. You're not being nice to that person. I don't know.
April:
People might be like, I don't know what pronouns are. I don't know what being trans is, but all I know is that that's a human being, and you're not being nice. And so, yeah, these complexities and these layers, they're all everything nothing is ever gonna be black and white. Everything is gonna be so complex, but I always wish I'm like, dang. I wish everything was just a, b, c 123 so then we can all just, like, be so in it. You know?
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yeah. So I'd love to just, like, insert a little little segment before we wrap up. We've got, like, 1 or 2 more things I'd like to chat about. But do you have a TMI story for us?
April:
Oh my god. I'm trying to think. A TMI story. I have so many. I feel like I have so many and, like, at this point, also, like, I could tell so many stories, and then my level of what's TMI and what's not is so different than the average person too.
Freya Graf:
Like, literally, one of the
April:
things that I feel like I have to talk it's the Libia Lounge. I have to talk about this. And, like, an article was recently written about this for me as someone did, like, a video on me about this. But, like, online, I always talk about how, like, my one labia is just, like, significantly bigger than the other. And I grew up being like, what the fuck is going on down there? I wanna get it cut off. Mom made me an appointment. We're getting surgery. I'm getting this thing cut off, and she was like, hold your horses.
April:
Like, what what are you talking about? But one of the biggest, like, TMI things for me that has turned into being not so TMI is talking about my vulva and, like, the appearance of my vulva to, like, normalize it to make it not so TMI. But, yeah, that's something I would say that immediately came to mind is is, as a TMI thing is just, like, talking about my vulva and the way it looks and how and, like, you know, normalizing that shit because, you know, you don't often people most people don't even know what they look like to begin with down there. Nonetheless, do they know, like, changes that that might occur during pregnancy, during puberty, during all those things because, like, labia size, shape, color can change during all of those different aspects of life too. So I always tell people, like, take a mirror, get with it down there, get it to feel around, do the things. And it feels like for a lot of people like, if I were to bring this up at dinner conversation, they're like, woah. That is TMI as hell. But my goal is definitely to make it not so TMI. And for people to just be like, yeah, the same way people are like, my eyebrows are 2 different shapes.
April:
They're sisters, not twins. My boobs are sisters, not twins. My labias are sisters and not twins. Right? And same with so many different aspects of our bodies. And and, yeah, that would be that would that's the first TMI thing that that came to mind for sure.
Freya Graf:
That's so good. I love this sisters not twin thing. And it is it is slowly slowly. I mean, at least I'm I'm the same. It's like, what is even TMI anymore? It's so funny because I have, like, a a dating app profile that's, like, for the labia lounge where I ask people to send in their TMI stories. And it's just like, I, like, collect little little, TMI stories. And so often people are, like, like, will tell me this, like, super fucking basic boring story, and they're like, is that too much? Is that, like, too TMI? I'm like, babe, honey. I have.
Freya Graf:
I have. Literally, god, I have you have no idea how often so, like, 2 most common TMI story as I get through the because also, like, most of the people that, match with my profile are men on the dating apps. I'm not really sure why that is. It's open to men and women. Yeah. But so I'm getting a lot of stories from men. 2 most common ones. I snapped my banjo string, like, frenulum snapped bleeding, during sex Oh.
Freya Graf:
And thought it was that the girl got her period, but it was actually that I'd, like, you know, snapped the frenulum of my foreskin and my dick was bleeding. Can't even tell you how that's like every second story. And then, like, slightly slightly less common than that, but also extremely common story I get is about anal sex and, like, poo going everywhere. And it's just, it's so common. And I guess that is, like yeah. That that counts as TMI. You wouldn't probably bring that up at the dinner table, but my threshold for TMI is so high at this point. So, yeah, I feel as though, like, being able to people now, like, will especially with, like, yeah, the feminist movement and, like, breastfeeding in public and things like that, people will definitely talk about having one boob that's smaller or larger than the other.
Freya Graf:
And I feel like we're pretty close to being able to refer to our labia in, like, slightly more public, contexts in that similar way. In there. We Again, there. There.
April:
You. No. Yes. That's exactly what I try to do because it's like, people I also something I haven't, like, talked about as much, but I recently, like, made a story about this on Instagram is, like, I am getting in a few months, like, a full body, like, skin check to, like, moles, freckles, all the things, see if everything is good. And a lot of people don't realize, like, down there also gets things like that. You know, you can get, like, tumors or moles and, like, things that you wanna know about. So, like, get in touch with yourself, not only for your pleasure, not only just to normalize and accept your body, but also for your health to know kind of what is normal for you and what is different. Because if something changes, that might spark you to wanna ask some questions to your health care provider.
April:
So I not only think it should be normal just because, like, fuck it. Like, this life is too short to, like, not just talk about our lives and our bodies and and to feel shame about them. Like, no one should ever be feeling shame about these things, but, also, so that you can maintain your health and know what's going on. And, like, the same way, you know, we normalize these, like, checking our breasts and feeling for lumps. Like, we should be looking at our entire bodies and seeing kinda what's going on there and making sure. Because a question that another question I'll get from people sometimes is, like, you know, my labia got darker or my nipples got darker, like changes in the skin tone. And a lot of people don't know that that can be related to, like, hormonal changes. It's like if you're going through through puberty, yeah.
April:
If you're going through pregnancy, yeah, but at a different time, like, you might wanna ask some questions, and it can all depend. So, like, yeah, getting to that point for so many reasons, like pleasure, self acceptance, self love, but also health. Yeah. There's Yeah. And there's no wrong reason why someone wants to better better understand their own body and and know what their body looks like. And also talk about that with people because people have gotten, like, different skin cancers and, like, melanoma on their vulva, on different parts of their vulva, and they would have never known if they didn't, like, pull flaps back and go in there and check it out. Right? So Totally. Yeah.
April:
TMI so much of TMI shouldn't be TMI. And TMI as an idea, it's like and I love that you do this segment because when people I have said things to people and then they've gone to me and been like, like TMI. And I'm like, don't shame me. I'm like, don't make me feel ashamed for what I told you. Like, fuck it. Let's talk about the TMI. Let's talk about the anal sex poop. Like, let's talk about the banjo string, like, ripping.
April:
Right? And that is stuff that, like, should be talked about because I would bet you it's happened to a lot of people, but people with penises or men are not talking about the possibility of that happening or even if they're, like, or asking for help if it does and, like, feeling ashamed about it. TMI for me, like, people saying TMI, just incites so much shame. So I really love
Freya Graf:
Impressive. It's like so it's just another, like, form of oppression and stimming any sort of educational conversation that could come of, you know, like, it's just another fucking tool of the the, like, patriarchal pals that be that wanna, like, keep us feeling disgusted in our bodies.
April:
So I love exactly why I love that you asked about it. Because you're like, let's not do that, and let's talk about the fucking weird shit that, like, we should be talking about that we shouldn't say is, like, fucking weird or is weird in the best of ways. Right? And so many people, like, going back to the vulva conversation and, like, the labias, so many people messaged me and they were like, oh my god. Like, me too. I had no idea that, like, other people had this experience. And it's like, the more we talk about it, the less people feel shame, and the more people can find community and feel less alone as well, whether that's, like, with boobs, with labia, with whatever it is. And that is so monumental because in this world of 1,000,000,000 and billions of people, we often feel so alone in some circumstances, but it's important to remember that, like, if you're no matter how interesting or odd or irregular you might think your scenario is, there is someone out there will that will at least hear you out and be like, I you know? I maybe I didn't go through the same thing, but I totally getcha. And that's, like, what talking about it helps people to discover.
April:
Find communities, find conversations, find education, and find people that don't make them feel ashamed of existing and having the experiences that they've had.
Jill:
Hey. Me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it 5 stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I wanna mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website site and get yourself a labia lounge tote, tea, togs. Yep. You heard that right. I even have labia lounge bathers or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So, if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my buy me a coffee donation page, which is actually called buy me a soy chai latte because I'll be the first to admit, I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that. And yes, that is my coffee order.
Freya Graf:
You can do
Jill:
a one soft donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as 3 fat ones a month. And I also offer 1 on 1 coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way.
Freya Graf:
So every bit helps because it ain't cheap to put out
Jill:
a sweet podcast, into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be I'm dyingly grateful if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself. Salty. And, I'll pop the links in the show notes. Thank you. Later.
Freya Graf:
Yes. Amazing. Absolutely agree. It's the whole reason I've got this podcast. It's basically my mission in life. So, you know, everyone get out there, talk about your labia, talk about your boobs, talk about the things, just, like, test the water with people that you feel like might be a safe space and just, like, start setting new precedents within your friendships and your relationships and your family and just fucking talking about the shit. Like, be the trailblazer. Be the courageous person that gives other people permission and creates a safe space to talk about the stuff that maybe previously was considered TMI.
Freya Graf:
That's And you never know action for you.
April:
Yes. And you never know what can be born out of that either. It could be, like, a new friendship. It could be, like, someone might say to you, like, you literally changed my life. Right? Just by talking about something, you never know what the positive, like, repercussions could be from that. And I always say whatever the topic may be, whether it's sex or, like, politics or something else, like, we're never gonna get anywhere and create changes if we don't talk to one another and have conversations with one another. So even if it's someone who you might not always get along with, like, there's there might be so much you don't know about them. And if you, you know, are open to a conversation and and hearing someone out, you might learn, like, I didn't know.
April:
Like, we both grew up with the same kind of childhood, and we both had this experience. Then it's so much good can be created from a simple conversation and from a little just a little dash of vulnerability in there too.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Word. Word up. Alright. Fuck yeah. That was a great conversation. Thank you so much, Jill.
April:
Thank you. Oh my god. I had so much fun. Like I said, I could keep going and talking about this for hours and hours and hours. But someone
Freya Graf:
has to talk do another. We can do another. We can, like, just get a bunch of questions that we both get sent in, and we can just, like, do a big q and a episode if we feel like it at some point. Yeah.
April:
That would be so fun because considering all the all the questions place to, like, get a lot of their questions questions answered at once. So that is Yeah. Truly, truly amazing. But I thank you so much for having me. This was an amazing conversation. And we talked about so many important things. And I hope the people that listen, like, are able to gain something or learn something. And yeah.
April:
It's such an honor and a privilege of the it was such an honor and a privilege to
Freya Graf:
be here to talk to you. Aw. Pleasure. Treasure. And, everyone, go follow Jill's work. Send in questions. I've got, like, a little idea of having maybe, like, a semi regular episode brewing where we just, like, you know, every month or every 2 months, we, like, jump on and we do something like that. That would be really cool as, like, a collab.
Freya Graf:
But, yeah, amazing. Thank you. And that's it, darling hearts. Thank you for stopping by the labia lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it, just waiting for you to sink back in for some more double l action next time. And in the meantime, if you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode, or leave a review on iTunes, then you can pat yourself on the snatch because that, my dear, is a downright act of sex positive feminist activism. And you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatize with this here podcast. Also, I'm always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered or guest suggestions.
Freya Graf:
So feel free to get in touch via my website atfrerograph.com or say hi over on Insta. My handle is freya_graf/ymt and I seriously hope you're following me on there because damn, we have fun. We have fun. Anyway, later labial legends. I'll see you next time.