Freya Graf [00:00:00]:

I think I think I think I think we're on.

Liam [00:00:03]:

Fuck. Yeah.

Freya Graf [00:00:03]:

Oh my god. That is such an ordeal. Dear oh, dear. I did not think this was gonna happen, especially after ladies and gentlemen and what do you ladies and gentlemen and, what would I say as, like, other other folk? Anyway, fuck. I'm getting hung up on.

Liam [00:00:26]:

Ladies and gentlemen and others.

Freya Graf [00:00:27]:

And others. Okay. Yeah.

Liam [00:00:30]:

Everyone in ladies and gentlemen and everybody in between.

Freya Graf [00:00:34]:

I got towed today, so I've been having a shit one with car troubles. So I'm already absolutely exhausted and off it, and then we just have, like, I don't know, would you say 45 minutes of, like, tech frustration and

Liam [00:00:47]:

difficulties? It probably was, anyway.

Freya Graf [00:00:50]:

Oh my god. I am rich. I have 0 capacity for tech stuff. And after the car stuff that I also have 0 capacity for fuck. Love RSCV, though. But, I mean, they couldn't help me, but I did feel looked after just getting towed all the way home. Okay. So

Liam [00:01:06]:

You're looked after me?

Freya Graf [00:01:08]:

Yeah. I guess so. I just yeah. It's just so sensitive, this thing. I don't know. Yeah. But, so, Liam, welcome. I might even just record an intro for this, like, later when I can articulate.

Freya Graf [00:01:25]:

Sure. Yeah. But, I I might just even launch into some, like, questions. But would you would you like to introduce yourself, and, like, why would or would you prefer me to just start asking you some questions?

Liam [00:01:40]:

I'll introduce myself.

Freya Graf [00:01:41]:

Alright, sweetie.

Liam [00:01:44]:

My name is Liam.

Freya Graf [00:01:46]:

You probably don't. No?

Liam [00:01:47]:

I'm just gonna say that. Okay. My name is Liam. Feels like it's an alcohol phenomenon. I've been in a I've been a furry for, I don't know, like, furry stuff has always been I don't know why exactly it's been intriguing for me. I'm still on a long term expedition to find that what that part of me really means to me, but it forms also forms a very central part of the way that I operate day to day in my life and started off as, like, a trippy idea that, I thought of an acid in a way and then, you know, sort of filtered down into, something really real for me and something very grounded in my own sense of spirituality and kink and, yeah, sensuality, sexuality, and in different elements of my life. It's, you know, it's played out and, you know, I think in in that sort of animalistic primal furry embodying an animal, the animal, the human animal way, it has been, you know, very expansive in my own sex life and, made me feel a lot more of myself and be able to do a lot of, somatic expression in the moment as well and sort of help other people do that at the same time. And, yeah, and then, you know, it only gets weirder from here.

Freya Graf [00:03:38]:

Oh my god. Is it my time to talk? I just, like, fully I just got lost in what you're saying. I was actually just trying to take a quick note to follow-up and ask you about what you meant by somatic expressions and how you're helping facilitate that and others. Like, how does, like, the fairy kind of, I don't know, would you say, lifestyle, culture, perspective? Like, how does that help you be more somatic? Or, like, do you mean, like, in your body and embodied and expressive?

Liam [00:04:08]:

I think, yeah. So

Freya Graf [00:04:10]:

I reckon we just leave it here, and we go talk.

Liam [00:04:12]:

I think

Freya Graf [00:04:12]:

it'll be fine. This is out. Okay.

Liam [00:04:14]:

How they

Freya Graf [00:04:14]:

done it? We just gotta knock it knock knock it over. Okay. Yeah. Should be should be straight there.

Liam [00:04:19]:

Then add some friends. You want that? Oh. You can just do this wet. Leave it then. And that's gone.

Freya Graf [00:04:28]:

I'll just sit up a bit because then wear a similar hat for the the box. Okay.

Liam [00:04:35]:

So yeah. What's the question?

Freya Graf [00:04:37]:

I don't know.

Liam [00:04:38]:

It was

Freya Graf [00:04:38]:

on some Yeah. Yeah.

Liam [00:04:46]:

I think that, you know, in in the world, we're really trapped and, very empty to all of our energy, and so stifled in a way when we should be fiery and should have that passion, fire of our of our passionate intent and should be liberated and be liberal with the way that, we express ourselves in our life through, you know, like, burping or fighting, sneezing, and and and laughing and and and cursing and, you know, being loud and boastful and happy and boisterous and, like, everything. And so when, you know, when it comes to, like, you know, furriness in the bedroom, then, like, some of my favorite, sexual encounters have been, female body people, just being very, like, animalistic and especially when I had long term partners, one in particular, where I could set where we we sort of knew what each other wanted and what what we needed. And, you know, it's like even, like, you know, arguments have devolved into, like, you know, some, like, hot fiery sex. Remember, she's fucking threw up, like, which is what I mean. Like, a a thing full of popcorn? She, like, threw it all over me because she's so fucking angry about something else. And for me, it's like, I'll I I because I've practiced martial arts, like, I'll eat that frustration, and I'm just happy that that person got to express what they needed. You know? Because it's like if they need to get that out and that that level of frustration, I don't think it necessarily matters. Like, if it is exactly in line with the thing, it doesn't have to be about what you're frustrated about.

Liam [00:06:41]:

It can just be frustration, like, put elsewhere. And so just in that motion, just, you know, like, physically rolling and and moving with somebody and then letting out all those sounds like growls and, like, you know, guttural sounds and, you know, just, you know, like

Freya Graf [00:07:03]:

Like a lack of inhibition as well. Like

Liam [00:07:06]:

Lack of inhibition. Yeah. And your freedom. Freedom.

Freya Graf [00:07:09]:

Yeah. Yeah. Because so many people feel really uncomfortable, like, making much sound or sounding a little too, like, animalistic or primal or, you know, the sounds of, like, true, like, fucking intense female female orgasm is can be similar to, like, birth, like, very guttural and, like, deep and, like, not, like, pretty, like, ah, sounds. You know? And so I'm hearing that, like, fairiness, like like, embodying I don't know. I'm more the spirit of an animal, which is therefore more primal and animalistic and close to nature, that, like, allows you to just bypass a lot of the conditioning that we've had that's, like, suppressing that level of, like, authentic expression. Yeah. Yeah. Furryness is the the gateway.

Freya Graf [00:08:03]:

Is that what you said? For me. Did I just encapsulate that really well?

Liam [00:08:07]:

That was great.

Freya Graf [00:08:07]:

Okay. Sweet. But is and is that is that, like, all furry culture? Is that your your expression? That's cool. I felt like are there other people that also enjoyed these these elements of it?

Liam [00:08:18]:

Well, every every person I've been with who has done that.

Freya Graf [00:08:22]:

It's very much name and identifies. No. No.

Liam [00:08:25]:

And it doesn't even necessarily like a like, this is a furry thing. This is what is happening. Yeah. But that's how it happened, and that's what what we did. You know? And that and that, to me, looking back at it, is what that was. And so it's like it'd be but, you know and I think it's exactly what you said because it's like we, sort of we have these all these modes and these, like, sort of default ways of being that have been programmed into us through pornography or through just, like, you know, media in general, like different, like, rom coms and different, like, you know, whatever kind of, you know, various films and shit. Mhmm. And, yeah, it it doesn't it sort of stifles our expression, as I said.

Freya Graf [00:09:09]:

I never said that.

Liam [00:09:10]:

So if we can be this other thing, if we can do this kinky whatever, we can be this crazy character, we can be this fantasy, we can be this other thing, we can be this like, oh, it's like I have permission to make a sound because I'm not me, I'm an animal. Mhmm. You know? I'm not me. I'm a I'm a princess slayer. I'm, tomb raider. I'm, you know, anyone

Freya Graf [00:09:36]:

And so it's like

Liam [00:09:37]:

So that's where the kink thing comes in and then freeze people because they are able to step into something that maybe usually they wouldn't be comfortable with. But because it's it's like side stepping the anxiety, being big yourself. You know what I mean?

Freya Graf [00:09:53]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which, like, for me, is, like, my worst nightmare. Like, I I hate I role play stuff really, like, I don't know. I'm I can't just get into like, it really I find it really difficult, and I guess that's like you know, I actually used to love acting when I was younger and, and probably, you know, got teased and bullied, and creativity got kinda got crushed out of me. It wasn't, like, cool to do that, and then now I'm just like, oh my god. If you threw me in a in an improv class, I would literally spontaneously combust.

Freya Graf [00:10:26]:

I fucking hate it. Like, I don't like acting or role play stuff now.

Liam [00:10:31]:

Mhmm.

Freya Graf [00:10:32]:

And so, yeah, like, even, like, sexual kind of kinks where there's role play involved or, like, you know, the idea of embodying an animal or whatever. Like, I cannot think of anything that would make me more uncomfortable. Mhmm. So it's very impressive to me when people have thrown off the shackles of those inhibitions and, like, insecurities or fears or whatever the fuck. I don't even know what it is. Like, an internal judge of, like that that's got the voice of, like, the cool teenagers I went to high school with. You know? Like so it's really it must be really liberating. Like, that's fucking really cool.

Freya Graf [00:11:09]:

And, like, yeah, it sounds a bit like you've grappled with some shame around it as well and internalized fucking yeah. I mean

Liam [00:11:19]:

Happens really often for me when I have sex generally because I feel a lot of shame and anxiety and everything gets heightened into it's a very sensitive space for me. So, yeah, when I can when a partner can meet me there and, like, help me just be expressive, you know, by knowing each other well enough and, you know, yeah, having for now, the way I would do it is have have, like, proper free talk. Yeah. And then we're, like, we're talking about the do's and don'ts and yucks and yums, and, you know, and then we just, you know, and then, you know, we talk about desires and things when, you know, we have a little kinky, nice, fun conversation and develop it into into you know, it's like it's it's not even necessarily I wouldn't say it's like foreplay. I would say it's it is sex in a way. Yeah. It's like the conversation can be spicy and make you feel good. You know? And sex is basically just a good feeling, you know, at the base of it.

Liam [00:12:16]:

So

Freya Graf [00:12:16]:

It's just amazing the level of, like, vulnerability that you need to be able to feel comfortable and safe with, like, to share that side and show that side of Yeah.

Liam [00:12:29]:

It takes a lot for me. I mean, someone has to be really, you know, very gentle, and that's the thing is that, like, I think a lot of people have these, like, very, you know, like, little kinky things or, like, little desires or, you know, I think, you know, everybody's secretly pervert deep down. We we just wanna

Freya Graf [00:12:49]:

Everything's secretly what?

Liam [00:12:50]:

Pervert deep down.

Freya Graf [00:12:51]:

Pervert. We

Liam [00:12:52]:

wanna we wanna see, we wanna do, we wanna feel, you know. And I think when by people continuing along the trend of creating the kind of mental and physical and sexual safety that we are trying to do, then the more safety that we can, put into action, then the more open and more exciting our sexual lives will be because we're allowing people like me. This is what would happen if somebody really made me feel safe, is that then, then I'd be able to open that space with them. You know?

Freya Graf [00:13:27]:

And then, like, what does that, like, look like in the bedroom? Like like, are we, like, role playing to Amazing. Being animals, just making animal sounds? Like, where

Liam [00:13:40]:

but I

Freya Graf [00:13:40]:

don't know. Like like like, talk me through it because I just have no idea. So there's, like, nothing is different.

Liam [00:13:46]:

There's different levels, and there's different tiers, I feel like. You know?

Freya Graf [00:13:50]:

Like, it's not all it's not all, like, those, like, American kind of fairy vibes of, like, animal suit costumes and big, like, big animal heads.

Liam [00:14:00]:

No. That's like that's the

Freya Graf [00:14:01]:

But it's not

Liam [00:14:02]:

all No. No. That's not what it is to me, but that's like I respect them for

Freya Graf [00:14:07]:

That's like the main

Liam [00:14:08]:

doing what they're doing. I guess it's like a caveat. You know? It's it's it's nice to be able to explain about that realm of furriness to

Freya Graf [00:14:15]:

Well, yeah, I wanna cover that as well, like, because it's interesting because I I just have only seen a couple of docos on that, like The last one. Yeah. And maybe, like, a channel 5 or something. I don't know.

Liam [00:14:27]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Freya Graf [00:14:27]:

But, like

Liam [00:14:28]:

I love channel 5.

Freya Graf [00:14:29]:

It's, you know, like, at the conventions where there's, like, so many and there's so much community, and it's like you know, I think you were describing to me once, like, the idea of especially as like a socially anxious person or a neurodivergent person or an introvert or, like, you know, someone who just like to go and wear a costume and have, like, a full mask over their head, and, like, all they have to say all evening is, like, meow if they want. Or they can chat with people. Nothing. And they, like, get to be around other people and, like, be in a social space without the anxiety of yeah. Like, I don't know. I was just like, woah. I never thought about it like that. I thought it was just a, like, sex kink.

Liam [00:15:07]:

Mhmm.

Freya Graf [00:15:07]:

You know? So there's different, like, facets of it that people enjoy, and I imagine, like, some enjoyed certain facets, like, more than others. Like, maybe someone who's, like, really into the actual fursona, which I wanna talk about.

Liam [00:15:18]:

Mhmm.

Freya Graf [00:15:18]:

Like, the fursona animal suits and stuff. Like like, I imagine they have, like, sex flaps that they can leave the suits on and fuck while they're wearing them and stuff. Yeah. So, like, that's, like, one end of the spectrum. And then your expression of it has been really fascinating to, like, talk to you about because it's it's not as much about this sort of costume and the I don't know. So yeah.

Liam [00:15:41]:

It's actually, you know, quite a bit less about that. I wish I had that courage to, you know, put all that effort in and then go to those conventions and meet those people. That's a big, that would take a lot of courage to go there and to express your kink openly and and But I

Freya Graf [00:15:57]:

think there's way more of it in America, and they have full conventions for it. So they wouldn't even they would feel comfortable there because it's like, these are my people. Yeah. It's harder in Australia. No?

Liam [00:16:07]:

Yeah. It is. And maybe you go to Comic Con, you see one person that's like you know? It's, like, not necessarily, like well, you know, I'm not saying I wouldn't look that deeply either. There could be, like, little niche communities that I just don't know about.

Freya Graf [00:16:18]:

If you know about any niche barrier communities, let us know because it's hard to find.

Liam [00:16:22]:

Yeah. Totally. But you what is your question? Just like, what is it? What does it look like?

Freya Graf [00:16:28]:

Yeah. I guess so. Yeah. Maybe if if you if people don't know what fairy ness is or

Liam [00:16:33]:

Oh, you wanna talk about fairiness, not about how I

Freya Graf [00:16:35]:

Maybe of both. Maybe, like, the, you know, mainstream. Can we say mainstream fairy?

Liam [00:16:41]:

Okay. So contrast them. So, like, mainstream furry. What's nice funny No. It's not where I put, like, quotation. Quote mainstream mainstream furry, is

Freya Graf [00:16:54]:

The majority, maybe.

Liam [00:16:55]:

Yeah. The majority, the people who do furry stuff sort of they make the costumes. They have a first so first of all, they have a fursona, and their fursona is like an idealistic version of themselves, with all the character traits that they would wish that they had, all the confidence that they wish they had, all the you know, maybe it looks sexy or they've drawn a sexy version of it or maybe not. Maybe it looks strong. Maybe it looks and maybe strong is sexy to them. Maybe it's so many different things. And that forms a a first owner and an identity that they can choose to, replicate with a, a full first suit that a custom that is custom made, and, you know, wear it embodying this character, talking like this character does, being excited, being proud, being silly, being, you know, conniving, whatever, like, you know, character they wanna, enact. And that to me was always beautiful because it meant that you know, it's just like for me with video games, it was always the same thing.

Liam [00:17:59]:

I could be a character as well. You know? And that character wasn't me, and that character could be confident, and that character could be interesting and, you know, all that stuff and all these all the things that I was lacking in terms of, like, a sense of self worth. And so I guess how that compares to me is, like, they the a lot of furries, they go to conventions, they'll build the suits, they'll just talk about furries things, you know.

Freya Graf [00:18:25]:

Fairy sex is called yiffing, which I found so that really tickled me.

Liam [00:18:30]:

It's so cute. It's such a cute way.

Freya Graf [00:18:32]:

Yiffing is so it is so cute. And I guess that's like I mean, is that part of it? Because the fairy suit seemed more cute than Tuff. Like, is the part of the appeal like It's just cute. Like fucking cute animals that are, like I don't know.

Liam [00:18:46]:

Cute, like, anxious humans who find it very difficult to interact, and I think there's a lot of humans out there like that who are a bit more anxious, but that gives their brain so much energy for their sexual desires. So then they when you when you get there with them and you're a safe enough person, then the way they open up to you is like it is, you know, there's it doesn't it's almost like a waterfall, like, in torrent of all this, like, interesting fun stuff that they wanna try and, you know yeah. And I think that that's Wow. The community is. That's particularly that's me. That's who I am. Like, you know, because it's just because my sexual energy is based on how much people can make me feel safe, and how safe I can make the situation myself and, you know, all that sort of stuff. And so how it works out for me, how how, fairness is for me is that, you know, you can see these things around my neck.

Liam [00:19:48]:

The the one the 2 different walls, one's, this one's made of, malachite. This is my yin. This is my yang, little snow wolf. And They're

Freya Graf [00:20:02]:

like wolf carvings for the listeners. I'm

Liam [00:20:05]:

really getting

Freya Graf [00:20:06]:

No. It's that's just an audio podcast, though. So

Liam [00:20:10]:

and then yeah. So they, like, they form a central part of my, my yin and my yang in my life and my own sense of spirituality and, you know, give me a sort of, because I've got autism and, ADHD and OCPDs, CPTSD, lots of the old things. And being in reality can be really hard for me a lot of the time, And so then I choose to embody the character of either of these, like, these wolves or the or the wolf I am to help me operate in my life and and hold my head high and be confident. So and that forms a sort of central part of my of who I am because that's who I actually genuinely see truly see myself as, you know, and and no. It doesn't make any sense. It's like a spiritual sorta blah blah thing, but it is like I've seen it enough times in my life and, you know, came to it in the right ways, and I still see that image when I'm on the right path. Like, I saw that neon sign today that was a little you know, it looked like a wolf. It's like it just means it's always been signs to me that, you know, things synchronicities are happening, and I'm on the right track towards stuff.

Liam [00:21:31]:

So that's, like, spiritual side. Then sexual side is, like, when I'm in the bedroom, like, with people who I've had a longer connection with, which is now the only sort of thing I want because I've realized how much better sex can get, because of the deeper level of connection and how much I can know people and getting to all these, like, kinky things and these fun stuff. And, you know, so I don't need to just keep, like, flipping the body, you know, flip next body, next body, next body, next body. It's like you actually wanna invest in a human being and then see if they're the kind of, human being that aligns with me. And then, if they align with me, then, you know, we'll have great sex and we'll have a great, relationship. But when we get deeper, then I explained all this to them, and, we can connect in in that way where I can, you know, I can growl and, you know, I can, you know, you know, like, the or the you know?

Freya Graf [00:22:32]:

Yeah. Like animals.

Liam [00:22:34]:

Like and again, especially when you're having sex and you're really with somebody else who's very really fiery and strong physically, then you can wrestle a bit and, you know, there's just hot. There's just, like, sexiness. And then, you know, you play with the, you know, the level of desire in that way and, you know, like, it's like one of the best times I've ever had was just like it's like we were 2 animals, like, trying to kill each other.

Freya Graf [00:23:02]:

About having sex?

Liam [00:23:03]:

Yeah. And then but having sex at the same time, and then it was like, you know And then, you know, lots of check ins and clear and clarity, you know, to make sure everything was all good, but we had a developed relationship. So it's like you're, you know, you're trying to kill someone something also but also fucking at the same time. It was that was, like, oh, I forgot to think about that. Man, so so beautiful. And, you know, that all those growls and expression, the anger, it's like, I recognize that from training martial arts that that, again, it doesn't matter where the frustration comes out. It just matters that it does. And if it's in an open, sensual, pleasurable space, then I feel like it gets the where it gets caught is a very, strong vessel.

Liam [00:23:48]:

Mhmm. You know? And so it can be to me, you know, it can be as simple as, you know, just when I'm with people, just checking them a little bit and growling and doing things. And, you know, if they think it's weird or they don't like it, then it's just not the right person for me.

Freya Graf [00:24:05]:

Right. So, yeah, is that how you kinda like, how do you tense the waters with a new person? Do you come out and say, like, hey. I'm a fairy No, man. Or, like, do you kind of just gauge it by starting to, like, purr a bit here and there? Or, like, how do you fucking

Liam [00:24:20]:

Well, it's like I I've tried so many different ways, but it's like I've I just feel like, you know, you just gotta let people know who you are. You know? So it's not like you're you're

Freya Graf [00:24:31]:

not a waste of time. Thing. It's such a misunderstood thing as well. I feel like

Liam [00:24:35]:

It's like if they wanna understand it.

Freya Graf [00:24:36]:

Came out. No. If someone came out, it was, like, sexually to me. Because I'm fucking vanilla nil, and I don't have pretty much any kinks, like, and I really didn't understand what, like, fairiness was. And, like, honestly, like, in earlier years, it was pretty easy to make fun of. Like, it got a lot of it copped a lot of shit. Like so and so if someone was like, hey. I'm with you.

Freya Graf [00:25:01]:

But it's like, I'm also I just should let you know I'm a fairy. I would think of the bias down here and be like, oh, fuck no. I'm not into that. I'm sorry. But if you were like if I was getting to know you and you were, like, just slowly sneaking little bits in of, like just like, you know I don't know. I don't I don't even know. Maybe you could sneak it sneak it up on me. And, also, since having, like, chats about this, I'm starting to come to understand it so much differently, at least through your lens.

Freya Graf [00:25:29]:

And I'm like, oh, I probably get that. That sounds great, actually. Like, it's not my thing. I don't really think I could maybe ever be that uninhibited to get into it. Also, not really sure if it would even feel authentic to me, but it's fucking cool. So, anyway anyway anyway, yeah, how do you go about it? Like, now what do you reckon is the best approach?

Liam [00:25:54]:

I think it's different. Like, you know, if anybody is interested in doing those things for themselves, it's just like, I think, literally, physically, biologically, we are an animal. We literally are a mammal, you know, and I think that we do have these very primal sounds that come out during sex. And I think it it's just as simple as just letting those sounds out and honoring that that is a a part of your pleasure in the world. And also that sound, you know, laughter sounds like freedom, but so does pleasure in any form, really, laughter, everything. Maybe just expression is freedom, you know.

Freya Graf [00:26:34]:

So, like, then at what point do you go, hey. Do you wanna, like, put on a costume? You wanna put on a costume and do some animal role play?

Liam [00:26:42]:

I think that's, like, that's a really far down the track for me. You know? It's like people I need to be really sure that people are, like, the safe, you know, right person. You know? And that's a whole that's a whole thing. You know? So I wanna be make sure there's a secure connection, so if I get all the stuff ready, you know, it's like there's a and there's different ways to do it, you know.

Freya Graf [00:27:01]:

Get all the stuff ready.

Liam [00:27:02]:

Like like so from so the sexiest way I've seen it done on a female bodied person is, let me just save the microphone for me.

Freya Graf [00:27:12]:

I mean, you did it.

Liam [00:27:18]:

The, like, the sexiest way I've seen it done on female body people in in real life because there's obviously, like, the whole anthropomorphic, pornography scene, which is another whole concept.

Freya Graf [00:27:30]:

Oh, yeah. We gotta talk about that.

Liam [00:27:33]:

And then, is is, like so butt plug tails.

Freya Graf [00:27:37]:

Oh my god. Epic.

Liam [00:27:38]:

Butt plug tails, paw socks, paw socks, squishy paw socks.

Freya Graf [00:27:43]:

Oh, oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Liam [00:27:44]:

On on your foot. Yep. Just like here, here, and here on your big toe, on the ball of your foot, and then on the other side, on the far side of your foot. There'll be, like, little squeegee things and then a little string

Freya Graf [00:27:58]:

on the fun to move around in. Honestly, Paul, it's

Liam [00:28:00]:

really dope. And it's like a you can get, like, a, you know, thigh high, you know, stocking sort of thing, and it looks super sexy and then little ears that go on with the shape nicely that go with your hair, little clip in ones. There's no band. There's not a cross. It's like

Freya Graf [00:28:14]:

They look like real ears poking out of your head.

Liam [00:28:15]:

It looks like really is poking out of

Freya Graf [00:28:17]:

your head. And then and

Liam [00:28:18]:

then the next step from that would be to do, like, full face makeup looking like the animal that you wanna embody. And then, you know, feel it's like when you put on a dress, it makes you feel a certain way. You know, when you put on a suit, it makes you feel a certain way. You put on you put these something in your bum, and you put

Freya Graf [00:28:34]:

it Yeah. And you put Yeah. The butt butt blonde tail. Yeah. Okay.

Liam [00:28:37]:

And then you put the ears in in your in your hair, and then you have, like, you know, maybe like a furry sort of, like, vesty thing or you know, then it makes you feel a certain way, and it makes you it can make it, like, extra spicy and sexy. And then, you know, they can hold the tail while you're going fucking, and you can you know, there are all sorts of things. You know? It's like, and you can do forehand as well, like forehand, socky things.

Freya Graf [00:29:02]:

Oh my god.

Liam [00:29:02]:

So it's like and then you like, a lot of female body people, I think of, you know, I see as cats, and so and they dupe her or they meow at each other. So and then that's, like, that's my conspiracy brain going thinking that, like, oh, everybody's actually a fairy.

Freya Graf [00:29:17]:

Everyone's a fairy. They just don't know yet. They just don't know yet,

Liam [00:29:21]:

and they just need to, you know, let that space be open in a sexual way.

Freya Graf [00:29:25]:

I'm like, you've got me convinced. I'm like, give me a bucket of tail and some fucking ears, but look. What? Like, that's It's really nice. And I also kinda I also kinda get the, like, the because, like, I fucking love fantasy and sci fi. I love fantasy movies. I, like, love fairies. I get I get the, like, pixies and all that, but, like, it's just not like I can't actually like, it doesn't actually make me feel any certain way. And when I see it, I can't see I can't see it as anything other than a costume.

Freya Graf [00:30:00]:

I can't get into the full, like

Liam [00:30:02]:

Yeah. Totally.

Freya Graf [00:30:03]:

Yeah. But so that's cool because I think it takes, like, a certain amount of, like, imagination and willingness and Yeah. Playfulness and childlikeness and just, like, taking joy for like, I think that's really fucking cool, and I I feel like I'm so jaded. I've lost it. But I was definitely like, it was sounding super appealing how you were just describing it, and I'm like, wow. That's I just this is what I mean. Like, there's so much more depth to probably, like, most kinks, honestly, than anyone realizes. From the outside, it's just like, oh, look at these guys, like, fucking in animal suits.

Freya Graf [00:30:33]:

Like so so with sex positions, do you ever, like, actually fuck like animals? Is it erotic to think of being animals or fucking an animal, or is it more just, like, embodying the

Liam [00:30:44]:

Not necessarily like an animal per se, but it's more like an anthropomorphized animal, which is like a humanized version of a of an animal. So it's not necessarily like a because bestiality is obviously a thing that comes up in the conversation, but it's like it's nothing to do with that. It's everything to do with the, like, I don't know, I guess, the connection with the people. Yeah.

Freya Graf [00:31:12]:

And, like, would that have stemmed a lot from, like, the anthropomorphic porn that you like, cartoon animal humans, like Yeah. That are arabica?

Liam [00:31:22]:

It's like hentai, you know, anyone who's in hentai. You know, it's like,

Freya Graf [00:31:27]:

Which is the Japanese

Liam [00:31:29]:

Japanese cartoon porn, basically. And they got comics and manga and Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

Freya Graf [00:31:34]:

All that stuff. What's the difference between, I never know hentai and manga. What's the difference?

Liam [00:31:38]:

No. Not I think I I I'm not a fucking expert on this, but Okay. Manga, I'm pretty sure, is just means the, this like, a series of comics. And I don't and I think some can be anti manga. Is that just this is that pornographic? Are they a series of I don't know.

Freya Graf [00:31:59]:

Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah.

Liam [00:32:00]:

Yeah. Yeah. And then some

Freya Graf [00:32:01]:

It's like fiction and then erotic fiction. It's like the smart version of okay. So let's get back on track. Cool. So it's not bestiality is its orange ink or whatever.

Liam [00:32:12]:

Restiality is illegal.

Freya Graf [00:32:14]:

Yeah. A 100%. Restality means actually different thing.

Liam [00:32:16]:

Having sex with an animal, which you can't which can't be consensual because animals can't

Freya Graf [00:32:20]:

keep sex. Okay. Well, obviously. But you can watch fucking porn on that, and that is a different thing. But the fairy thing is more, like, stemming from, like, yeah, these, like, kinda sexy cartoon. Like, fucking, you know, Daisy Bunny and, like, Ariel the Little Mermaid. I mean, she's a fucking mermaid. It was just hot.

Freya Graf [00:32:37]:

Right?

Liam [00:32:38]:

Lola Lola Bunny from

Freya Graf [00:32:39]:

Oh, yeah.

Liam [00:32:39]:

That Space Jam?

Freya Graf [00:32:40]:

I think that's where I met. What did I who did I?

Liam [00:32:42]:

Daisy, you sent us, like, a Nintendo

Freya Graf [00:32:45]:

Bugs bunnies. Just gave, like Bugs bunnies, like, girl bunny. Mario.

Liam [00:32:49]:

Oh, fuck. Daisy Daisy from Mario.

Freya Graf [00:32:51]:

Alright. Well, I'm getting them all mixed up, but they're, like, hot ass. And there was even, like, an Olympic mascot, the Aussie Olympics in 2004. Maybe do you remember those mascots? One of them, I think, in the sea I remember Is it the platypus? I don't know though. He was a tank, and, like, definitely the sexiest Olympic mascot. One of them like, we had this whole thing. Our friends were like, who's the hot, like anyway, I'm getting off track. Sexy cartoons.

Freya Graf [00:33:15]:

Like, anthropomorphize them.

Liam [00:33:17]:

Because people do think that cartoons are sexy. I mean, people and and they don't even

Freya Graf [00:33:21]:

It's nice. It's his first crush is Lola from Space Jam. Yeah. For sure. Okay. So that's basically budding furriness. Furry, isn't it? That's that's

Liam [00:33:28]:

I I would say that that yeah. You just sprouted the seal sapling.

Freya Graf [00:33:32]:

Okay. Now you're growing. Okay. I get it. Heaps of cartoon characters. Although Man. I don't know. Anyway okay.

Freya Graf [00:33:39]:

Cool. So

Liam [00:33:41]:

Yeah. And there's, you know, there's hentai. There's there's comics about it. It's really good just, like, art of, you know, of individual characters that they've done or you know? And rule 34 is a big big part of it, which is rule 34 is that if you if you have heard of it, there's a point of it.

Freya Graf [00:34:00]:

Yeah. Totally.

Liam [00:34:02]:

Did, like, you know, the Samsung, I think she's called Cortana, and then so they made the Samsung woman into a real person and did a, like, a sexy version of the of the it's like Siri for Samsung phones that it is a sexy version of the Oh my god. Or they do like that it's like sexy coronavirus. Oh, dude. I have to a coronavirus that actual can the actual virus, and it's it's like it's like got, you know, a nurse costume.

Freya Graf [00:34:30]:

What? Honestly That's actually

Liam [00:34:32]:

it's it's, like,

Freya Graf [00:34:34]:

fucking funny. They just

Liam [00:34:36]:

It's fucking it's the most like, it just cuts through everything. This is like you there's no there's no filter on any anywhere. There's no filter on rule 34 pages on the Internet making porn of the most horrendous, horrific shit. You know?

Freya Graf [00:34:52]:

So, like, rule 34 is like this this sort of term there's not a website called rule 34, which has all the most fucked shit.

Liam [00:34:59]:

No. But there probably is one that that's got that that So that's metadata.

Freya Graf [00:35:03]:

I've actually never heard of that. I'm not yeah. I just I'm not a child of the Internet, and I don't know these things. But it's a whole other world, and I'm and I've never I've basically never watched Forbes. No one

Liam [00:35:13]:

else has ever mentioned it to me.

Freya Graf [00:35:15]:

Oh, Rule 34? Where did you get it then?

Liam [00:35:17]:

I don't know. I just have spent so much time on computers.

Freya Graf [00:35:20]:

Weird. Alright. Let me

Liam [00:35:21]:

I found everything. It's not a question.

Freya Graf [00:35:24]:

And so yeah. I mean, because, like, how old were you when you got into, like, fairy porn? What it wait. So there's is there fairy porn where there's, like, videos of I mean, Rutherford. But, of course, there is videos of people in fursona costumes fucking, but

Liam [00:35:37]:

then it's I'm not so interested in that.

Freya Graf [00:35:39]:

You're into the cartoon.

Liam [00:35:40]:

It can't be very not many positions or very long in the sweaty ass hot suit.

Freya Graf [00:35:45]:

I mean, it sounds awful. Yeah.

Liam [00:35:47]:

I don't know. They're just Sure.

Freya Graf [00:35:48]:

They make out. I love a pash. Like, how you can't even make eye contact.

Liam [00:35:52]:

But also, there's, like I mean, just on that quick is, like, another sexy part for me is, like, pop hoods, and then me getting a pop hood.

Freya Graf [00:35:59]:

What's that?

Liam [00:35:59]:

It's like a it's for a pop play, which is another sort of set sect of,

Freya Graf [00:36:04]:

A pop like, puppy.

Liam [00:36:05]:

Puppy. Like, having a collar on and being led around and then drinking from a bowl and then having a cage and Yep. Yep. That's on the hiring inspection. I don't know if I do the cage or drink in the bowl or just eating food off the ground or

Freya Graf [00:36:17]:

So that's kinda like a a subgenre of fairy.

Liam [00:36:21]:

Literally sub is submissive. It's subgenre.

Freya Graf [00:36:24]:

I'm a genius. Oh my god. No wonder I have a vodka. Okay. Woah. This is, like, all just so interesting.

Liam [00:36:31]:

But, yeah, the pop hood, you can get one that that comes out like this, and the and the bottom is cut off, so you you can use your mouth. So but then you can get other ones that are full face where they're part

Freya Graf [00:36:40]:

of your mouth. Hood. Hood.

Liam [00:36:41]:

And it's made of leather.

Freya Graf [00:36:43]:

Oh, wow. Okay. And I have to

Liam [00:36:45]:

get facial ones. Yeah.

Freya Graf [00:36:46]:

Fuck, man.

Liam [00:36:47]:

I found some good ones. Wow. I've been looking for ages.

Freya Graf [00:36:50]:

Oh, like, so you you're into popping? Is that what you call it?

Liam [00:36:53]:

Well, I'd love to try it. I haven't never got the chance, but I know that it's something that I would love to do for sure. Okay. Meet the right person in the right but a lot of people in the kinks scene try these intense kinks in public first, and that's very exhibitionist. That's a pretty and just because it's available there, then they're trying it there. But you can't really gauge well if you like that stuff or not if you're doing it in front of so many people if you're not an exhibitionist person. Wow. So it's like then people are thinking that, oh, yeah.

Liam [00:37:22]:

I don't like this king or that king. No. You did it in front of 23 people, or you did it in a room full of loud music, or what if you did it alone and you did it, you know, with one partner and

Freya Graf [00:37:33]:

so, like, about context and, like, set and setting, isn't it? It's like you can have such a different experience just just tweaking, like, the, yeah,

Liam [00:37:42]:

the human being and

Freya Graf [00:37:43]:

the yeah. Oh, yeah. Straight up. Yep. Alright. So I am looking at my question list because, like, I haven't even glanced at it. We've just been on a roll, but I just wanna make sure I, like, ask everything I wanted to ask. So okay.

Freya Graf [00:38:05]:

Well, I've got, like so how have you gone, grappling with, like, the like, because I know like, the shame, I suppose, is because I know up until Oh, man. Recently, you know, this is kind of a big deal in itself that you're, like, being vulnerable with us and sharing all this on that fucking podcast, which is so brave. But, like, this isn't like, this is quite a new territory if you're being more open about it. Right?

Liam [00:38:36]:

Yeah. Because I'm I like, you know, forcing myself into anxious positions where I have a lot of resistance towards doing something, and I like to just, you know, put my head in the fire sometimes and then change out the fire was water all the time. Yeah.

Freya Graf [00:38:53]:

It's good. Take risks. And then,

Liam [00:38:55]:

like, it's helpful for me because, you know, someone's giving a fuck about what I'm saying, and then I'm able to expand on some thoughts that I haven't really been able to verbalize properly. You got ADHD, so verbalizing is very helpful. And so I think a lot of the time, so it's like it's actually very so it's all it's all valuable. Did you what was your question?

Freya Graf [00:39:13]:

Yeah. How how else have you been have you kinda gotten over the chain? Because you used to kinda, like, you've been undercover fairy.

Liam [00:39:18]:

Yeah. I mean, I'm still very like, I guess, a closet fairy, you know, but I'm not, a closet fairy, but I'm not, I don't know. Like, I think with the with one partner who's, like, the people who I pick to to, be in my life, I I usually enjoy the company a lot. So then I open up to them and it doesn't I don't need to share it with everyone in the whole world. You know?

Freya Graf [00:39:42]:

I mean And

Liam [00:39:42]:

it's like, I would love to be able to do that liberally and stuff, but, also, it's like I don't need a you know, it's like like, with my non binary ness, like, I wanna tell people that I'm non binary, but it's just, like, it's not actually the world's business. It's just actually, you know, not actually even such a big deal. It's just who I am and, you know, and that's a big deal to me. But I don't really care what it is.

Freya Graf [00:40:03]:

It's not like you have to, like, come out as a do you know what I mean? Like, it's a private part of your, like, personal sexual expression. And, yeah, it's like

Liam [00:40:13]:

Kim, guys, I'm coming out. I really love scat. I really love Yeah.

Freya Graf [00:40:16]:

Like, no one does that for any of their kinks. Like, I guess, though, like, people go to BDSM events, and then they know other people in the community, and it's very, like, so so much camaraderie and bonding. But Oh,

Liam [00:40:26]:

that big that massive one we went through and didn't see a fur no. Not not

Freya Graf [00:40:30]:

a furry inside. Fuck no. Where are

Liam [00:40:32]:

the furries at? But I think

Freya Graf [00:40:34]:

Well, yeah. I'm just like, where do you find them in Melbourne?

Liam [00:40:36]:

Yeah. I'm right here. But there's

Freya Graf [00:40:38]:

But there's no outward scene where people gather. Oh, I guess you said you

Liam [00:40:41]:

just weren't. They're probably all anxious as fuck. Maybe there is a bunch of them there. Just they can't haven't got courage yet. Dear. So maybe I should be the one. I'll kick down the door. I'll wear the fucking sexy stuff, and people

Freya Graf [00:40:51]:

are like, I like to do it. You should do it.

Liam [00:40:54]:

Yeah. I wanna get a job at Shenzhen for sure. I just wanna get the right things and the ears and the tail and all the stuff. And Oh,

Freya Graf [00:41:01]:

yeah. Because you don't have, like, a a fursona or a costume or anything

Liam [00:41:05]:

like that. A fursona, but not a costume.

Freya Graf [00:41:08]:

The wolf fursona? Does it have a name on it? Or it's just like

Liam [00:41:15]:

No. It's just an angel for it. I actually write it down, in my in my journal, which I don't have on me. But, you know, it's just like, yeah, all the all the positive things that I could embody, basically, and Right. Differentiating them into yin and yang, and then chosen like, sometimes I wear one necklace and not the other depending on what the day needs, like, if I need more patience or if I need more fire, you know, that sort of thing. But yeah.

Freya Graf [00:41:42]:

Oh, yeah. Fuck. Okay. So interesting.

Liam [00:41:45]:

Yes. Yeah.

Freya Graf [00:41:48]:

So, like, what other stuff in a sexual setting is like would would fall under like, what would, like, maybe a potential sesh look like? Say, you are able to express it, like, to the fullest because you had someone you were comfortable with, and they were also into it, which, you know, is hard to find someone here. But, like, do role play and or is it nonverbal? Or is it Are we

Liam [00:42:19]:

talking, like, all the way down the line, the maximal version of what I'm talking about?

Freya Graf [00:42:23]:

Maybe. Yeah. I guess so.

Liam [00:42:25]:

Well, like, maximally, you know, you have butt plugtail for both of us, and then poor socks for both of us, cute ears for both of us, you know, and then, like, sexy strappy lingerie, you know, but then also makeup, you know. And then also, like like, and this is ideal stuff for me, but, like, the, you know, yeah, a whole role play, you know, something that, you know because there's lots of good examples of comics that I've read and my favorite comics that I've saved and read it for fucking years. You know? So it's like I can reference one and then you can read lines. You could even learn lines.

Freya Graf [00:43:06]:

Like, there's like a script of the comic erotic comic? Yeah.

Liam [00:43:10]:

Because they're yeah. Erotic furry comics. You know?

Freya Graf [00:43:12]:

So you can role play the characters in your Yeah. Erotic Oh,

Liam [00:43:15]:

there's, like, one that I love where it's like a a cheetah and, and like a elk like, not an elk, like a gazelle, you know, and the so it's like then the fem bodied person's in power because they're, like, trying to kill the the, the, the the gazelle, and then they're like, oh, what's this? And they're like, you know, then there's, like, a whole role play of sexiness. You know? And then this, there, and then he so always the same. He's like, he fucks her so good that she's too tired to chase after him, and so

Freya Graf [00:43:47]:

he gets away. Woah. What? That's so funny. Oh my god. Okay. This is so I just couldn't imagine. Yeah. Like, I can't

Liam [00:43:57]:

That's just one example as well.

Freya Graf [00:43:59]:

Like, do another. Do another.

Liam [00:44:00]:

More intricate.

Freya Graf [00:44:01]:

Okay. Yeah. Like, so, have you have you what's your favorite one or something you've role played out, like a scene?

Liam [00:44:09]:

I've very rarely got the opportunity to do it, unfortunately. But I do, I can't remember exactly what it was, but I'll tell you the experience because it was, like it still remains to be one of, like, my most, you know, my most interesting sexual experiences to date

Freya Graf [00:44:25]:

We should. Straight up. Oh, we'd love to hear it.

Liam [00:44:29]:

Because it was with somebody who, who I had met in in, you know, the DWARF, and we had, like, the most beautiful, like, sexual connection. Like, when we first got together, it was just like, you know, we had, like, some of these, like, like a tincture called Love Bubble that's my daughter. Yeah. Magically disabled, and then, they you know, then my friend gave me this whole, like, ceremonial read into it, which is, like, setting the intention and stuff and sort of expanded the, you know, experience a bit. And I'm like, this you know, I'm always a skeptic. So I'm, you know but I dispense this from, like, asleep, and we're going into having sex, and then we have sex. Then, you know, my boobs are just I don't ever, you know, text feed, but I took speed and

Freya Graf [00:45:14]:

Love bubble's like a stimulant kind of, like, herbal, like, healthy little concoction that they, like, put in coconut coconuts and stuff or, like, give you give you droplets.

Liam [00:45:23]:

Yeah. Something like that. And then and then my, you know, my my flop wasn't doing the doing the old stand up machine.

Freya Graf [00:45:30]:

You know? So Having a hard a hard time

Liam [00:45:32]:

keeping the

Freya Graf [00:45:32]:

interaction or getting one?

Liam [00:45:33]:

Just getting one. And then she and then I remember her saying something so sweet to me, which is, like, we'll do the best with what we have. You know? And then that was like a that was the, like, central idea to our whole connection relationship. Yeah. And then, you know, when we kept connecting after that, you know, and we had a really sweet sort of romantic time, and, you know, we're both quite young, you know, like, early twenties. And, yeah, and then we I remember one time she came to my place, and we, yeah, went through like, we like I showed her, it's very an anxious thing for me to show people, you know, my kink and, you know, this is the stuff I like or this you know, because it's like if the reaction is harsh, then it makes me I'm such an insecure person. It makes me feel really bad about I was like, oh, I shouldn't have showed this to you. You know? It was like anxiety.

Liam [00:46:30]:

And then you know? But she liked it, and then she liked one of the things that, one of the, you know, role plays that we were doing, and then, yeah, the the you know, one of the comics. And then so I was like, oh, do you wanna read it out? You know? Do you wanna embody this? And then, you know, and we were just reading it in, like just sitting next to each other, just touching each other, just reading, like, in a sexy voice, to each other. And we didn't remember the lines or anything like that. It was just, like, you know, sexy back and forth instead of forming the scene. And then, you know, sort of progressed, we got, you know, we got Amyris and and and Hart, and then got together and, you know, sort of, like, I laid her down in the bed and, you know, yeah, we just I I remember so distinctly, like, when we were fucking I think she was just riding me, and then I had this the image that in my head was like her as a lion, you know. And to me, she is that, like, lion spirit.

Freya Graf [00:47:27]:

That who she was playing in the comic?

Liam [00:47:30]:

Like the character she was doing? Okay. No. But that's what that's what I saw in my brain. You know? I was like, oh, woah. You know? It's like, that's a trippy moment. It went, like, fucked up or high or whatever. It's just like you know? And then she was she had the same, when we discussed it afterwards, she had the same the same thing in her head. She it changed the way that, lack of the of, like, who it's what it felt like she was fucking who it felt like she was fucking It felt like a, you know, an animal, and we were able to embody and, you know, yeah, express those those sort of more, you know, animalistic sounds and, you know, and ground muscle and be a bit tough with each other and, you know, we're all in a, like, sexy way and then, you know, you can hold that pleasure back and then, you know, you could hear and because the sounds are so obvious, you know, it's like even with a dog, you know when you heard it, you know when it's happy, you know when it's angry, You know? It's like you if you make similar sounds, then it's like the, you know, it's all the, you know, whatever it is, the the growling, the whatever.

Liam [00:48:42]:

Then it's pretty easy to gauge consent because you know when someone is feeling good or bad or this or that because you've, you know yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's one of my best ones. That was that was beautiful. I yeah, I'm I'm that's the sex kind of sexual experience I'd like to have often. You know? It doesn't have to be every time, but it would be nice. But,

Freya Graf [00:49:07]:

you know

Liam [00:49:10]:

different moods, different feelings. Yeah.

Freya Graf [00:49:13]:

Does it feel like something's missing for you in sex if you don't have an element of that?

Liam [00:49:23]:

In in I think the element is play, and I think if there's no play and it's just robotic, then here.

Freya Graf [00:49:29]:

But it doesn't have to be animal animal y to be play. No.

Liam [00:49:35]:

That's just how I play. You know? Everybody, when they're a kid, has the the blocks laid out very differently. You know? And sometimes they're not blocked. Sometimes they like to draw. You know?

Freya Graf [00:49:46]:

Dude, getting fucking poetic up in here. Alright. Let me check if I've got any questions on my list I haven't asked yet.

Liam [00:49:55]:

Yeah. Play is a very central idea Mhmm. For me and kink and in my own, you know, yeah, furry spirit. It's like I think it's the essence of life in a lot of ways.

Freya Graf [00:50:08]:

Yeah. It's a full spiritual kind of lifestyle for you, isn't it? Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. That's, like, so much deeper than what I think anyone thinks when they think of fairies. And, like, do you think it's like what are some other reasons why people, because that's your reasoning for being really into it, like maybe wearing suits and stuff. Like, maybe what are some reasons or, like, things that people maybe misunderstand about why that would appeal to someone?

Liam [00:50:40]:

I guess, firstly, like, people think it's all a king thing straight away, and they just think it's about people wanting to have sex in suits. You know, that's, like, always the first look on any sort of kinky thing is they're like, people judge it. But, you know, there's a thing in kink, which is you can't yuck somebody's yum. Mhmm. And that's a very good mental thing for life. It's like you can't like, I don't like that music. You don't like this music. You know? It's like you have different tastes Mhmm.

Liam [00:51:05]:

And that's fine. That's okay. What was the question? Or what are some misconceptions? People think that,

Freya Graf [00:51:14]:

Or other reasons why people are really into being a fairy.

Liam [00:51:19]:

Yeah. Just the anxious human beings, people who wanna embody something else, people want their own sense of, you know, a little bit of escape from themselves or they just wanna feel they wanna be able to embody I think for me and for most people, it's they're wanting to be able to embody something that they really want to in themselves, but they have such a big resistance to it in the the 44 organized sexual, conventions as they are. So then they wanna escape from that. And their body, their their feeling, their will was trying to, but they haven't found the the right avenue for that. And for me, that avenue is, you know, is kink and is, you know, furriness.

Freya Graf [00:52:03]:

I'm actually so jealous. It honestly sounds dope. Anyone that's into BDSM kink or has different things like this, it honestly just sounds so dope and immersive and, like, healing and intense and just, like, exciting and also, like, safe. You need so much trust and safety. And it's like you can't Yeah. Bypass that if you're gonna enjoy it. Whereas so much mainstream sex, you bypass all of that. No one's having getting all the nice safety and, like, emotional tenderness and and kind of, like, consensual you know? Like, man, the communication and the, like, the empathy and the care for the other human that you'd have to have to then cultivate this beautiful space where you can be ultimately, ultimately, ultimately, like, free, vulnerable, authentic, experimental, creative, expressive, primal.

Freya Graf [00:52:59]:

What the fuck? I'm so jealous. The thing but the I mean, it's fine. It's fine. I'm I'm content with, like, the sex that I have.

Liam [00:53:07]:

Words that you that you just said doesn't sound like anything like that. Any of those words are exclusive to kink. And the conversation, especially just the conversation before, sex is, like, for a lot of gay people, it's just the the first thing they do because a lot of them don't want they just wanna wanna have sex, but they don't wanna penetrate they don't want penetration.

Freya Graf [00:53:27]:

Well, that's what I'm saying.

Liam [00:53:28]:

Just wanna know that.

Freya Graf [00:53:29]:

Heterosex has been allowed to be so slack. Like all of these other, like, more fringe or minority kind of, like, sexual expressions of communities, like anything queer, like kinkviz, like poly. You just have to be so much more onto it with communication and consent and, like, having mature fucking adult conversations and all their head show manies don't fuck with that. They're just having the worst, most unconscious bullshit sex, and I hear about it way too fucking much. And, like, I'm not trying to yell anyone's down, but my god, guys. It can be better. And, like, I think so many people just

Liam [00:54:08]:

bad sex, isn't it?

Freya Graf [00:54:09]:

Yeah. And people could take a leaf out of the books of, like, yeah, the the fucking fairies and the kinksters and stuff because, like, yeah, it is such a such a amazing life skill to get so much practice to be really communicating in a mature, kind of shame free way about about this stuff. Yeah.

Liam [00:54:31]:

It just grows all of the all the things you need in between. It's like it grows that muscle of, like, checking in with your partner after you're done and just saying, like, hey. How was that experience for you? Did you really like anything? Did you really not like anything? Did you you know? It's like or but not straight away. If I can let let them feel the what they're feeling, you know. And it's like you guys can have a cup of tea afterwards and discuss things, and that's fun. It can be sexy. And it's a you know, you figure out how to do it. Which means

Freya Graf [00:55:02]:

nothing is hotter to me than great communication. It's literally the hottest shit ever. Like, my pussy throbs if someone's just like like, you know, someone I'm attracted to or, like, potentially quoting or whatever, and they're laying down the fucking fat communication bars. And I'm like, excuse you. Yeah. You just turned into a 10, baby. Like, it's crazy. It's fucking crazy.

Freya Graf [00:55:30]:

Like, I I love that. It's definitely a nonnegotiable for me. Anyway, I got a bit sidetracked there.

Liam [00:55:37]:

It doesn't have to be complicated either.

Freya Graf [00:55:39]:

It doesn't. It's you really straightforward.

Liam [00:55:41]:

It really

Freya Graf [00:55:41]:

doesn't. But, I mean, I talk way too much on this podcast about how important communication is, and I feel like I'm a broken record now. But is there anything like okay. So, actually, something else. This isn't potentially really even fairy related, but I remember you, like, showing me some of your accessories, your sexual

Liam [00:56:00]:

Accessory.

Freya Graf [00:56:00]:

I would say Accessories. Yes. Accessories. I love it. And, like, there was this, like, you were like, what? You've never seen a dick sheath? And I was like, show me immediately. What do you mean a dick sheath?

Liam [00:56:13]:

I wish I had it. Yeah.

Freya Graf [00:56:15]:

Fuck. So, like, that is explain that. That's like a it,

Liam [00:56:19]:

just It's made by a company called Bad Dragon on the Internet. They're the American company that handmade, sex toys, and some of the best quality ones that I've I've seen.

Freya Graf [00:56:29]:

And Maybe I can get some free shit after dropping the name. So Yeah.

Liam [00:56:32]:

They're fucking they're great. You know, it's worth a name drop. Like, they're fucking excellent. They're great people to align with because of the quality of the product that they make, and their communication is great, everything. And,

Freya Graf [00:56:43]:

Okay. So, like, silicone?

Liam [00:56:45]:

It's like a it's like a, you know it feels it's like high quality high quality, high grade silicone, and then so it, the the cock sheath that I have

Freya Graf [00:56:53]:

A cock sheath. Nice.

Liam [00:56:54]:

And it's, like, it's called, Flint Flint's sheath. So Flint is like they haven't created a whole persona in a character, but they have, like, Jasmine's this and Flint's that. So it's like they're actually creating sort of furry names and putting them on these things to like create

Freya Graf [00:57:10]:

furry dick.

Liam [00:57:11]:

Yeah. Kinda create a fundamental image of what this animal

Freya Graf [00:57:15]:

It's like the dragon dick.

Liam [00:57:17]:

Yeah. And it's got these, like, ribs that, come they're sort of flat and and smooth on the on the side, so it's like the head of of, of a penis, and then it just, like, can

Freya Graf [00:57:30]:

Like the coronal ridge, but like a bunch of them.

Liam [00:57:32]:

Just a bunch of them like that, and then also, like, little, dots that come out on the bottom that it would be that would feel really good. And because of this why the silicon moves, both parties can actually feel a lot of what's going on.

Freya Graf [00:57:46]:

Oh, so the I don't know what's going on. This, like, silicone sheath.

Liam [00:57:50]:

Yeah. Inside.

Freya Graf [00:57:51]:

So it's almost like fucking a flesh like, because you're

Liam [00:57:54]:

Sort of, but it's like it's not moving so much. It's like it's actually like it's holding on to the balls around it. Uh-huh. And it's got like a little sort of make not quite as tight as like a cock ring would be, but it goes around your balls, and then it the head of the penis comes out. And then you That's right. It increases the size and the and the width girth and all that.

Freya Graf [00:58:13]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it's like a dick a girth extent. Yeah.

Liam [00:58:17]:

That's why it's like, why is it even dick problem dick problems? Why is dick size a big thing for anyone? Because you can literally just get a sex toy that changes that for you and it's like, oh, you can use sex toys. It's like all sorts of things. It's like there's there's something for everybody. And then it's the best, male bodied sex toys I've seen on the Internet. Cool. That took you a long time. I also have a masturbator as well, which is like a flashlight, but it looks like a dragon's tail. And that one's called Jasmine, and it's got, like, you know, it kinda looks like they've locked the legs off.

Liam [00:58:50]:

It's flat on one side.

Freya Graf [00:58:51]:

Oh, so it's like the little, It's got her pussy and tail Yeah. And chopped off chopped off the foot, the tummy, and the the thighs. So it's like, oh, wow. It's like a full

Liam [00:59:01]:

And the the top of the torso, I think. Maybe less.

Freya Graf [00:59:05]:

Oh, wow. Okay. How how big is it? No.

Liam [00:59:07]:

It's not it's not that big.

Freya Graf [00:59:08]:

Fuck. This is so fascinating.

Liam [00:59:10]:

Heavy and nice and like you do

Freya Graf [00:59:12]:

You can probably fuck it.

Liam [00:59:13]:

Yeah. You can probably fuck it. It's still a bit too tight for me, but yeah.

Freya Graf [00:59:16]:

Okay. It's big dick over here. Now I'm joking. I'm teasing. I'm teasing. No. Thank you so much for sharing all of this with me. This is so interesting.

Liam [00:59:26]:

That's the last.

Freya Graf [00:59:28]:

Beautiful last. And then how often do you get to use your coffee sheet?

Liam [00:59:32]:

Rarely. Again, that's like a thing that I think I would like to use with a developed partner. You know? It's like and it's like if any people don't know, but it's like if they get to know me, they, like, look past the exterior, they're like, you know, the mask presenting whatever, you know, then it's like, oh, there's all these other layers down here, you know, and it's like, oh, have you seen my sex? I'm only gonna get whipped the sex toys out when it's the right time. And I think there's a lot of people like that as well.

Freya Graf [00:59:58]:

Oh, for sure.

Liam [00:59:58]:

Because they've realized how fucking kinky they are, and they've gotta test the waters because they've fucking they've just thought people straight in the water, and then they're like, I can't swim.

Freya Graf [01:00:07]:

It's courteous to just, you know, just ease them into it, and it's better for yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Totally. I feel like, there's certain things that I think, you know, better to just really get that out of the way immediately and communicate it. And it's it's even similar. Like, I've interviewed people on this podcast. I've done some episodes on STIs and on herpes, and I think it was the woman I was interviewing on herpes.

Freya Graf [01:00:33]:

Oh fuck, the yoni nutritionist. She was sort of saying with disclosure stuff, you know, she's tried both ways, and she's tried if she's got no active outbreaks, you know, and just wears condoms, she'll kind of not tell them until later, but then she feels meh, and so she's done telling them, like, straight up, like, hey. And and people can, you know, respond really beautifully, and people can respond really badly, and it's really fucking vulnerable. And she just has to she's like, I don't, you know, I don't have as much casual sex and fuck with people that I don't think can handle a mature conversation, and it's a really amazing, like, thing that separates the weak from the chaff. Because if they're not emotionally mature enough to have a fucking conversation about STIs and, like, you know Then how

Liam [01:01:16]:

are they gonna do consent? You know?

Freya Graf [01:01:18]:

Yeah. So, anyway, it sounds kinda like similar. And, again, communication. Yeah. Yep. What were we talking about?

Liam [01:01:26]:

Saves the nation.

Freya Graf [01:01:27]:

Saves the nation. Oh, yeah. Sex toys. So okay. That's fucking fascinating. Cockshaith that looks like a fursona's, like, very

Liam [01:01:35]:

deep. Dragon.

Freya Graf [01:01:35]:

Dragon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the dragon I remember saying a, the thing about dragon dicks that lay, like,

Liam [01:01:46]:

into the head. That on the website.

Freya Graf [01:01:48]:

Yeah. It's, like,

Liam [01:01:49]:

ones that come and ones that lay eggs.

Freya Graf [01:01:51]:

Yeah. Like, demagogue and Oh, it's, like, blowing my mind because I had no idea the extended that.

Liam [01:01:56]:

Oh, because Yeah.

Freya Graf [01:01:57]:

Yeah. Man. That's a hint I think. Right? Yeah.

Liam [01:02:00]:

A tentacle wand. Wand. Yeah.

Freya Graf [01:02:02]:

Fuck me. It's so interesting and so so not my thing, but it's gosh. Awesome to

Liam [01:02:07]:

know that. Long floppy ones as well. They're, like, really long ones. It's pretty crazy, man. People have got like, I've just seen, like, I've seen some athletes on the Internet.

Freya Graf [01:02:20]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Liam [01:02:20]:

Some sexual athletes, like, just I don't know.

Freya Graf [01:02:23]:

Even just seeing someone getting feasted on, like, athletic ads.

Liam [01:02:26]:

Just bouncing on this, like, it's literally, like, it is shaped like a horse's dick, and it's huge.

Freya Graf [01:02:32]:

Oh my god.

Liam [01:02:32]:

Just fucking going at it, and it's like, well, I'm happy you're getting this somewhere because I can't provide that for you.

Freya Graf [01:02:39]:

Right. You know,

Liam [01:02:39]:

it's like but I think this is why we wanted to get, you know, comfortable with sex toys because it adds so much more or different opportunities for fun. Because some things, we just can't give to our partner physically, physiologically, we can't. So it's like, may as well just, you know, have a little little taste test and see if the It's a sex act. Yeah. It's a sex act.

Freya Graf [01:03:02]:

Total fucking hate.

Liam [01:03:03]:

I love it.

Freya Graf [01:03:04]:

Yeah. I guess I just, like I'm just really sheltered, and I've never, like, felt, the the the need for a sex hack. I've had a pretty easy cruise y time, but really well, no. That's not true. I had I was really fucked up about sex. That's why I'm doing this work now. But since everything's being peachy, like, I don't know. I think I guess because I don't, have any kinks that I've, you know, discovered

Liam [01:03:28]:

Yeah.

Freya Graf [01:03:28]:

And stuff, it's pretty smooth sailing in terms of just

Liam [01:03:33]:

like I

Freya Graf [01:03:33]:

don't really have to have any of those sorts of conversations with people. I'm one of those people that used to have, like, mainstream heterosexual fucking sex and not communicate at all, and it was bad sex. Like, you know? Anyway, so yeah.

Liam [01:03:51]:

Like, 2 bodies there, but

Freya Graf [01:03:52]:

And I but I wouldn't have I I wouldn't have thought to use toys to enhance that. I guess there's, like, toys toys can be bypassing sexual connection, and then toys can be enhancing things. And I suppose I don't know. I just get off on human connection. I don't really need, much else. So No.

Liam [01:04:09]:

It's not. It doesn't you know? Yeah. I don't think it's, like, you know, your part is not like, because people usually use sex, so it's like, oh, my partner's not satisfying me enough. I need to add this extra thing. I just I think there's a spot for it where it's like, oh, and we are having great sex, but then, you know, let's try this thing. And then you try it, and and when you're having the the dildo conversation, you realize that, like, oh, hang on. When I put this in you and I do this and and it is at this speed, then you're like, oh, that feels good. And if I and then you're learning some sort of, like, consent y things accidentally because you're like, oh, this is I need to do this at a particular speed or I need it needs to be positioned like that or that feels good or this feels good, you know.

Liam [01:04:50]:

You're not just gonna, you know, whip a dealer into somebody's, like, you you know, you're kinda forced into having those conversations, you know, so I think in one

Freya Graf [01:04:57]:

of our channels does, though? No. No. Not everyone does. Bad. I've had some pretty bad. Actually, that was something I was we were gonna talk about was, like, not specifically fairies, but, like, with the kink and BDSM world, like, there are definitely some people getting around doing some damage because they're not doing it in an integral inconsequential way. And it might be because they're actually fucking sad and or a malicious or a narcissist or, like, they're actually just really ignorant of you know, how to do it.

Liam [01:05:33]:

Yeah. There's definitely Well It's just because it's easy for, like, big energies to take over those spaces, you know, and especially in in so it's it's easy for that to happen in a room full of people at a kink club. So what happens when you're in a bedroom alone with somebody and they're a big energy and you just don't know how to speak for yourself? You know? I think there's dickheads everywhere who make things horrible for people and bastardise what the

Freya Graf [01:05:59]:

Yeah. And say, like, oh, I'm a dom. I'm into kink, but they're actually just a fucking psycho.

Liam [01:06:04]:

Yeah. They think that means that what they say goes.

Freya Graf [01:06:06]:

Because, like, I had a friend who will remain anonymous this for obvious reasons who, like, wouldn't mind me sharing this. And I'm actually she's probably gonna come onto the body and talk about it. We've been meaning to do it for fucking months. But, like, I can't remember the exact details, but, like, her story is, like, you know, she hooked up with this dude, went back to his house, and he had housemates and stuff. And he, like, she'd never really experienced any kind of kink stuff, but she was sort of young and, like, oh, I guess I'll just, you know, see how it goes. And he, like, he he tied her up, and she was like, okay. I like I guess we'll do that. But then he, like, shoved a fucking butt plug, like a vibrating a vibrator up her butt that didn't have a flange.

Liam [01:06:46]:

And But any pre conversation, any No.

Freya Graf [01:06:48]:

And then he left the room.

Liam [01:06:51]:

Oh, man. I would

Freya Graf [01:06:52]:

And left her there, tied up with a fucking vibrating egg in her ass that she couldn't get out, and it was fully traumatic for her. It's fucked, and that's, like, the most unethical fucking thing I

Liam [01:07:02]:

can think of. Gross.

Freya Graf [01:07:03]:

So, like yeah. Exactly. And that stuff does happen, and he would be like, yeah. I'm like I'm like a dom, and I can, like, fucking I'm on this power trip. Like, you know, it's just the absolute opposite of what BDSM is all about at its essence if it's done well and with integrity. But, like, that stuff's happening. And, like, they're choking, like, because people see shit in porn now, and they're just like, let's just fucking like, choking out people so normal and hot, and then they're, like, crushing tracheas and stuff. And, like Well,

Liam [01:07:30]:

I think it's because it's, like, it's just part of the, you know, the default network of humanity. Like, we would put a masculine male bodied person in a position of domination, and then they think that they're entitled to everything when they put themselves in that realm. Mhmm. But really, all the stuff that went on there should've been a pre conversation. Like, hey. This is what I want. Can you fulfill these things? If she's like, no, then the answer's fucking no. And then, you know, there's just so many things wrong there.

Liam [01:08:01]:

It's like, you know, you're tying somebody up. I'm not sure how many times you'd seen him, but that's like to me, that's a quite a that takes a lot of trust. Mhmm. But people don't realize how vulnerable the space is, and and they've never done it before. And then they're tied up, and they're like, hang on a second. I can't fucking move. Like, if they want to to kill me right now, they could just kill me right now. You know, and then someone shoves something up your fucking butt, you know.

Liam [01:08:24]:

And it's like and then it it that would be an absolutely fucking horrible experience.

Freya Graf [01:08:28]:

Yeah. Yep.

Liam [01:08:29]:

That's fucking awful.

Freya Graf [01:08:33]:

Yeah.

Liam [01:08:33]:

What was the other part since I

Freya Graf [01:08:34]:

knew it?

Liam [01:08:38]:

Yeah. What was the other part? Since I'm in it? Horrible experience, surfing.

Freya Graf [01:08:40]:

I think just that it can be done really badly and On

Liam [01:08:45]:

choking, which is big which is probably the bigger one because people it's like actually choking is quite a hectic, like, not a hectic thing. It's more of like a a far down the line thing in BDSM. Right? Like, you would try and Advanced. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just it it's an advanced thing. And then you'd want to know, that your partner is really across, like, the being able to control the pressure around your throat and not even necessarily choking you.

Liam [01:09:21]:

The feeling of just having someone's hand there is actually really, can be really intense. Totally. Just having someone's hand there. And, like, because of this, now when I have a sexual experience with female body people, I'll make a point that if we do some sort of, like, neck some there's some neck things going on, I'll put my hand up in it, and then be like I'll say, is this okay? And then they'll say, yeah. Or they'll say, no. You know? And and I'll be like,

Freya Graf [01:09:52]:

what? Mm-mm.

Liam [01:09:52]:

Or and then I won't I won't go really hard, and I'll and they'll I'll ask them pressure notes. And then as they as I as I let it go, I usually hold my hand there. So then I'm telling their body that they're safe.

Freya Graf [01:10:09]:

Yeah. Because That's definitely

Liam [01:10:11]:

a way to

Freya Graf [01:10:11]:

do it.

Liam [01:10:12]:

Has been treated so badly. And, like, when I was with a, a female bodied person or ex partners who had has a baby, then her her, boobs were getting gnawed on and used used a lot unconsensually by this baby. So I would treat them very nicely, you know. And I would be nice and gentle, and I feel like that's, like, should be is undervalued in what it can actually provide in terms of, like, sensual, sexual, like, exciting, pleasurable experience for both parties. Because to see your partner really truly relax and and feel that great relief is such a rare experience in the world, generally. So we can provide that for each other, like, so

Freya Graf [01:10:58]:

Well, and that's why it's so sad that, like, literally now, it's like kids are doing that to one another the first time they ever had have sex with zero consent, and they think it's normal because they see it important. And they, like, they're doing it. I've heard stories of, like, you know, 14 year olds kinda doing it the first time they had sex and, like, both and both of them being kinda traumatized and really not liking it Yeah. And then, like, going and talking at this therapy circle or some shit. I don't know. But, like, you know, it was really, like, sad and very, like, indicative of, like, what's kinda happening, and that's really dangerous because you can genuinely do so much damage. Like Yeah.

Liam [01:11:33]:

You're going really hard. Yeah.

Freya Graf [01:11:34]:

You can it's not even that hard to, like, fuck it up. Like, it's it's been it's one of the biggest, isn't it the biggest sex injury? Like, people actually do die from it or get damaged, like damaged tracheas, and, like, you can you can fuck some shit up. You know? And it's very common that people do because they're not actually, you know, educated, experienced BDSM practitioners or kinksters. They just are fucking acting out shit they've seen in porn because they think it's normal.

Liam [01:12:06]:

Well, they've just done it if they if they haven't done a bit of jits.

Freya Graf [01:12:10]:

Jits in Yeah.

Liam [01:12:11]:

Because it's a it's that's an air choke. It's not a blood choke.

Freya Graf [01:12:14]:

Well, yeah, people haven't done jits. They are.

Liam [01:12:16]:

Blood choke is one where you cut off the the the actual blood supply in their brain, and they'll pass out. The other one will just suffocate them, and they'll, you know, diagnose the exertion in in the hard. Long enough. But,

Freya Graf [01:12:33]:

it's

Liam [01:12:33]:

just people just need to be way more gentle and just and I think with sexuality overall. And I think Yeah. That's true. And then work your way into intense moments. Big intenseness, and then it comes away. So we appreciate the intenseness, and then,

Freya Graf [01:12:46]:

you

Liam [01:12:47]:

know, it's like yeah. And also, like, down the choking thing, it's like, there's a lot of I'm sure I've heard there's a lot of family body people who, when they're young, they're offered it as a thing that because they thought that that was their role, they're playing that role. They're like, oh, this is what my partner wants. This is what they'll enjoy. And then their partner, neither of them are enjoying it. She didn't wanna do it. He he was doing it because she offered it and then misses his role. But it's actually it's confronting choking somebody.

Liam [01:13:16]:

It's confronting hurting someone that you're supposed to have a pleasure with. It's but that's the the BDSM community understands that that confrontation, and they use that as sort of an exciting thing. Yeah. But if you don't understand that, then now you It's

Freya Graf [01:13:32]:

just acting as a

Liam [01:13:33]:

traumatizing itself. Like Yeah.

Freya Graf [01:13:34]:

That's what I was saying about this 14 year olds. Alright. Well, anyway, we are way over time. We're gonna wrap up. But is there anything else you wanted to add to that you want everyone to know about fairies, about whatever, you know, stuff we've talked about? Because this has been highly fascinating, just quietly. Like, what the fuck? Probably one of my faves. Because it's just,

Liam [01:13:57]:

like glad to hear that.

Freya Graf [01:13:58]:

It's just so rare that you get, I would say, and people write into me. Fucking tell me, like, sometimes I feel like I'm throwing content out into the vacuum here, but let me know how you found this, whether it was accessible, whether you, you found it also fascinating and, like like, you know, deeply insightful into, like, a world that you wouldn't have access to to normally because that's I find talking to people about these things incredibly fascinating and rewarding because I just could never possibly hope to understand it if I wasn't allowed to ask all of these really personal questions and then to, like, generously share their knowledge and experience and vulnerability, like, and, you know, you've just done this on a potty, and I think that's sick and it's rare. And, you know, I hope lots of people listen to it, whether they're into furries or BDSM or not. Like, I think it's important to understand that side of the kind of perspective because, like, I I wouldn't normally, being the, you know, pretty sort of non kinky person that I am.

Liam [01:14:56]:

Venil now. I

Freya Graf [01:14:57]:

love that. Venil. Yeah.

Liam [01:14:59]:

Well, the last thing I would like to say, I guess, is just that I think, to me, it's just a belief. I think in everyone, there's something kinky, there's something strange, there's something that they, oh, I don't know if I should say that, and, like, they'll think I'm weird, or they'll think I'm strange, or they'll think I'm this or that. That, explore that feeling, and then open up to your partner, or significant other about that, or your friends, people who would actually hear you and not judge you and understand what you're going what you're experiencing and what you're desiring and then allow someone the space to come in to that to there and hold you in that space.

Freya Graf [01:15:45]:

I think that's not always an option for some people, though. Like, it would be hard to find that. Some people don't even have friends that they can talk to about sex, regular sex, let alone

Liam [01:15:53]:

Go online. Go on Reddit. You know? Find some people in a sub in a subreddit. Find a discord chat. You know, find you you may or if you don't have a community, make a community, you know, just reach out, fund kink events, and, you know, try to connect with the right people.

Freya Graf [01:16:11]:

In touch with Liam.

Liam [01:16:12]:

You can touch with me. I'll for sure, I'd love to talk. I would love to talk about

Freya Graf [01:16:16]:

some fun community. I actually interviewed a beautiful person, I guess.

Liam [01:16:19]:

I would totally do that. We'd love to. I'll get those down. Yeah. You know, because I I think it's just such a beautiful space for everybody, and, you know, we can make it really really safe and cozy and fluffy and, you know, like, just chill and, you know, big hot big hip hop and good times. Yeah. So just Crunchy party with the neon lights and, like, you know Lot of love. Yeah.

Freya Graf [01:16:46]:

So takeaway message, just give it a go, gang. Just take the risk. Give it a little try. See if you can find someone to connect with on this and, like,

Liam [01:16:56]:

Find that spot in yourself. What does it mean? What is it to you? You know? It doesn't need to be with anyone else necessarily. Just just explore that. Write about it. Draw it. Look at the porn. You know? See if it excites you. If it doesn't if it's not your your yum, then then and if it's not your yuck, then, you know, maybe it's something in between, and you can just keep exposing it fine.

Freya Graf [01:17:21]:

So And, like and and, you know, that would dismantle some of the layers of shame that might have prevented you from acting on it or exploring it before. It might just slowly start to thaw out or, like, melt away the, the layers of shame.

Liam [01:17:36]:

And if it's all the way up here

Freya Graf [01:17:37]:

And judgment, self judgment and internalised misogyny and, like, you know, like, we're fucking we're battling against it. So, like, I guess, you know, in the process of starting to be come open to leaning into it or exploring it, just, like, knowing that there are other people that are into this and do this way. Not alone. Yeah. You're not alone. And there's no need to be ashamed. Not. How good.

Liam [01:17:59]:

Yeah. Shame has no place in in Not. In the bedroom.

Freya Graf [01:18:05]:

Dude, this is so great. Thank you so much.

Liam [01:18:07]:

Yeah. Pleasure. Bloody love you. Any anybody time, mate.

Freya Graf [01:18:10]:

Sweet. Yeah. Right.