Healthy Boundaries and How to Stop Ghosting with Justine Ang Fonte

Speaker A [00:00:00]:

This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets.

Speaker B [00:00:10]:

Welcome. Welcome, my lovely lumps, or should I say lovely labs? I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge. We're gonna yarn about all things sexuality, womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health, and everything in between. Your legs. Oh, can't help myself. Anyway, we're gonna have Vagelords of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up. You're about to receive the sex ed that you never had and have a bloody good laugh while you're at it.

Speaker B [00:00:39]:

Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in Naam and I pay respect to their elders past, present and emerging. Now, if you're all ready, let's flap and do this. Oh my god. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the 1 intro? Whatever. It's my podcast. I'm leaving it in. Opportunity to access my new mini course for free before I start charging for it in future.

Speaker B [00:01:32]:

It's for people with vulvas and it's quick to complete. It's all about demystifying the female body and pleasure anatomy and getting some basic fundamentals to understand your body better. It's called Pussy Pleasure Secrets, Your Roadmap to Bedroom Bliss. You can grab it on the freebies page of my website or in the show notes. It's a great little free resource to kind of dip your toe in or act as a bit of a taster for my work. So if you've ever been curious about this sort of thing and you just don't know where to start or you want a really quick, easy, accessible, non threatening way to get the ball rolling and start working on this stuff, this is a great place to start.

Speaker C [00:02:12]:

Hi, Eluvia Love Bites. Welcome back. Today, we're gonna be covering a super important topic, how to have healthy boundaries, which is something that so many struggle with in our culture where there's pretty much people pleasing and sugarcoating our true feelings left, right, and center. And so many people find it hard to say no. And and this is something I notice a lot in my work as well. So we'll touch upon that. We're also gonna cover why sex ed is so important for encouraging a good relationship to boundaries and what pleasure has to do with this. So my amazing guest today, what's the impressive bad bitch? Let me introduce you to Justine.

Speaker C [00:02:55]:

Justine Angfonte is the child of Philippine immigrants and an award winning sex educator, consultant, and professor based in New York City. She received her master's in education in teaching from the University of Hawaii and her master's in public health in sexuality from Columbia University. Justine is being featured in the New York Times, The Atlantic, NPR, Glamour, and the BBC Hulu docuseries called Planet Sex. Fuck. I gotta I gotta check that out. That sounds fun.

Speaker A [00:03:26]:

That's a good 1.

Speaker C [00:03:27]:

On Instagram, she's known as your friendly ghost writer where she composes the text you avoid sending about setting setting your boundaries. Go down. That was a bit of a rough intro, wasn't it? It? Welcome, Justine.

Speaker A [00:03:41]:

Thank you. I'm happy to be here, Freya.

Speaker C [00:03:45]:

Okay. So, basically, to give everyone some context, I heard about Justine, from a beautiful woman I had on the podcast recently, Ruby Warrington, who wrote a book called Women Without Kids. And just a side note for everyone, if you haven't already, go and listen to that episode. It's incredible. Ruby is incredible. It's called No Kids, No Regret. But basically, Ruby also mentions you, Justine, in her book. I don't know if you're aware of that.

Speaker A [00:04:12]:

Yeah. I am aware of it.

Speaker C [00:04:13]:

Pretty fun getting the name drop. And, she talks about how you got fired for teaching about pleasure in sex ed in schools. So I'd really love if you're comfortable to hear that story, because that really incense to me. And I feel like there's, yeah, there's probably a bit there to share to get us started.

Speaker A [00:04:36]:

Yeah. Well, Shasta Ruby. I was I'm really proud to be in her book. I don't know if my grandchild less parents can say the same, but, I am very proud of the work that she's doing and really bringing to light a lot of the stories and voices of of the unsung sisterhood as she calls it. So, 1 correction that Ruby is aware of that was a mistake in the book is that I was not fired. I had resigned. I do wanna make that clear, although it's not too different. I felt like I didn't have a choice but to leave.

Speaker A [00:05:15]:

Right. The choice to stay meant not being able to really be my authentic self and to, have my wings clipped of doing more sex ed than the school at than at the school itself. And so I decided to leave. And it all started, in 2021 when I was a guest teacher at a neighborhood school, and I was hired to do a lesson on pornography literacy to a bunch of 11th graders, which in American education system, they are 16, 17 years old. Ripe, consumers of pornography tend to be pretty late to be talking about porn since many of them would have started when they were in, middle school or 12 or 13 years old, but nonetheless was hired to do that talk. And, I had also been doing a lot of work on boundaries and private parts being private to all grade levels, including a 1st grade class at the school that I did actually teach at full time. These 2 particular lessons were attacked, first in the New York Post, in 4 separate articles that got picked up by several other global tabloids, and then got picked up by Fox News, Breitbart, The Independent, and just start started spreading everywhere, and, either completely disagreeing with what I, in fact, was teaching, or, disagreeing with what the story, assumed, which was that I was teaching 1st graders about masturbation, which was not the lesson at all. So, people were very upset with the fact that I existed in this world and were very clear in the thousands of death threats how I should no longer exist in the world.

Speaker A [00:07:08]:

Oh. And this went on for several months in the year of 2021. And after learning that this external consulting work and speaking engagement work that I was doing outside of my full time job was something that my full time job did not want to support or back me up on. Mhmm. That is when I decided I need to resign, and I need to do my own thing. I need to, maximize my autonomy as a professional who is not only, credible in this world, but, is also verified to be doing work that is in fact developmentally appropriate. And so for the last 3 years, I have been, on my own in my own small business, speaking doing speaking engagements, rewriting curriculum for different department of healths, doing a lot of, podcasting, like this wonderful show. Mhmm.

Speaker A [00:08:03]:

Been doing some docuseries like the Planet Sex 1, and, have, you know, just been a part of other types of sex education initiatives that people, do recognize as important and necessary. So that was the smear campaign of 2021, but it still haunts me with new people learning about the work that caught the press back then and, the cycle kind of just starting all over again. But it doesn't change the work I do or the confidence in which I do it.

Speaker C [00:08:33]:

Far out. That is so wild. Like, I mean, ultimately, it was AAA great sort of pivotal moment for you to go out on your own and and have the freedom to do the work, you know, in an uncensored way. But that just seems so insane to me, like, great publicity to kind of launch your career. But how the fuck did you handle all of that vitriol and the death threat? And and also just kind of being, like, completely misunderstood and, like, wrongly accused, you know Right. When you're trying to do a good thing.

Speaker A [00:09:08]:

Yeah. Yeah. I, I not only just survived that horrible year, but, came out thriving mainly because of, the community that I have. My very best friend, came out to basically just take care of me for 10 straight days at the, starting on day 3 of everything. So I had no access to my phone, at all so that she could be managing all the vitriol coming in through every inbox from voicemails to emails to Instagram accounts, Twitter, Facebook, everything. So she was managing all of that for me and playing my overall publicist to, all of the people that were texting me. Oh my god. I just read about you, you know, in this thing or, oh my god.

Speaker A [00:09:58]:

Or you just showed up in my blog, the blog that I follow for my neighborhood, whatever it is. And, she was managing all of that for me so that I could just, manage, you know, figuring out when to feed myself and try to help myself fall asleep and just do simple things because it was so strong in the hate that I was being thrown. And then my brother played my family publicist because family members were also finding out, about about me from their channels across, you know, the other the other side of the United States and, were trying to get a hold of me too. It felt like like, a version of someone's, like, wedding day, but you didn't give your phone up as the bride. So everyone's calling you to figure out where they're supposed to park. Is it okay to wear that? You know, can they invite their plus 1? And you're like, I can't handle this. And so, basically, my 2 maids of honor, my brother and best friend, had my phone and just, like, took care of all of that for me, which was an enormous help. The second thing that helped a lot was my emotionally intelligent friends who knew better than to ask me, are you okay? Call me right now.

Speaker A [00:11:12]:

But instead, ask me simple questions that I could answer like, are you gonna be home between 3 to 5 PM today? And I'm like, yeah, I am. Why? Okay. I'm sending Filipino food delivery in your front door shortly. And so just knowing, like, okay. Well, Justine's gotta eat. That is something that needs to happen no matter what state of mind I'm in or, you know, how much I'm, you know, depressed or stressed out. And so just things like survival mode in that way. I had, a comedian that I follow that I'm a huge fan of, just Venmo me money.

Speaker A [00:11:45]:

He's like, I don't know what you'll need this for, but you're gonna need it for something. And I know you're going through a hard time right now, so here it is, you know. And I'm like, wow, you know. And so just love from people who knew basic survival, coping mechanisms that I needed, was really so helpful, in in my healing. And my therapist, I you know, she definitely earned every dollar that that that that year from, from me, and was just so so helpful at helping me be reflective and, to come away from the thoughts that maybe what I was doing was wrong and maybe they're right about me. And, she really just kept me really grounded. So community, food deliveries, my therapist. Those were the 3

Speaker C [00:12:37]:

Yeah.

Speaker A [00:12:37]:

Things that really helped me get through that time.

Speaker C [00:12:41]:

Wow. Yeah. I had goosebumps when you were telling me about all these, like, really beautiful, thoughtful, and very practical gestures that people were sending your way because that is honestly like the I mean, I I think so many people don't understand. Understand. It's like grief, you know, as well when something something massive goes down and you're just barely surviving. And those really practical things like sending you some food, or just kinda rocking up and yeah. It's really,

Speaker B [00:13:10]:

Yeah.

Speaker C [00:13:10]:

It's the best way people can show up for you. And that's really beautiful. I'm glad you were so supported because that just sounds so intense. Like, I'm curious. It's not super clear to me from what you said. Like, what exactly was the thing that you were teaching that fully set all of this off? Like, I don't understand teaching boundaries. That's not a big deal. Like, Yeah.

Speaker C [00:13:30]:

Like, how is this misconstrued, and what were people getting all twisted knickers about exactly?

Speaker A [00:13:38]:

Yeah. So the high school lesson on pornography literacy was how, they cannot be relying on pornography to be their form of sex education. When it came to racialized sexual violence, it was very pervasive in, you know, what they're watching. The lack of protection being used, beauty standards being, you know, just, like, amplified in ways that are unhealthy and unrealistic, and skews towards what white bodies genetically can look like. We looked at how consent and gender dynamics and power dynamics definitely skewed towards, men dominating women and women looking like they wanted to be dominated, the aspect of pleasure being skewed for, for mainly women, and that it's easy to come. They come all the time, and that there's something wrong with you if your body doesn't experience something as easily. And so it was really me giving like a PSA on, how what you're watching is not going to be what your experience is like nor should be your instruction manual. I did not show any porn.

Speaker A [00:14:54]:

We talked about porn. And that was enough for parents, who were also sheltering in place to overhear on a Zoom assembly that this doesn't match the curriculum I thought my tuition would go towards, instead of complaining to, you know, the teacher running the program or the even the principal, they went straight to the New York Post because of their connections with that form of press and said, let me complain to completely cancel this person. And then the first grade lesson I was teaching, the title was Private Parts Are Private, and it was a lesson on, using anatomical terms like vulva and penis Mhmm. And, teaching these 6 year olds that these parts are only to be touched by you. And, this is how you pronounce those words. And let's talk about what your body bubble is because your whole body is private to you. There are certain parts that even when swimming are still covered. These are called your private parts.

Speaker A [00:16:08]:

All other parts that people might see, they still need to get your consent if that is something they want to touch, if they wanna hug you, if they want to, you know, play with 1 of your toys, like, all of that is your property. It's your body, so this is how you assert those boundaries. But the words vulva and penis were overheard, again, during a shelter in place, parent over a Zoom lesson. And the parents had heard private parts and somehow assumed that, this teacher with a master's in public health and a master's in education was teaching their 6 year old about a word they cannot even pronounce, masturbation. That word never came out of my mouth. I said the words vulva and penis and private hearts, and they made their own conclusion. And, similarly, instead of just emailing me since I am their child's teacher, all of a sudden, I hear about the complaint the first time through the New York Post article. So that is what actually happened, and, that is how people decided to complain.

Speaker A [00:17:21]:

It's a it's it's it's an elevated Karen, if you will.

Speaker C [00:17:26]:

Oh my god. That is Karen Squared. That is absolutely fucking ludicrous. Like, I mean, I've banged on a fair bit about cancel culture on this podcast before, but this is just a prime example. Like, this is on a whole another level to, like, the kind of censorship that I'm kind of up against when trying to market my business, which absolutely hamstrings me. Like, it's almost fucking impossible to, you know, get my name out there and run a business in this in this area of sex education. But just hearing that you're in the trenches actually delivering the most free more like, everything you were just talking about, I'm, like, literally, like, just cheering and celebrating inside that at least some kids got that perspective and that kind of sex education. Like, that's all the kind of shit that, you know, I'm always talking about that would absolutely be such a game changer and prevent people from rocking up in my office absolutely traumatized with no boundaries and no sort of, you know, sexual autonomy or sovereignty.

Speaker C [00:18:26]:

And yet, you know, you've basically had people try to ruin your fucking life. Like, that is just insane to me. Makes my blood boil. So I'm glad that you've come out of that stronger and thriving and that that was the catalyst to completely switch it up and go out on your own and, yeah, find a way where you weren't going to be. I guess, what's the word I'm looking for? I don't know. Muzzled and and and limited in, like, how Yeah. And how you, you know, are able to engage with students and, like, change their lives with this information that's so important. So yeah.

Speaker C [00:19:05]:

Wow. Go, Yu.

Speaker A [00:19:08]:

Yeah. Thanks.

Speaker C [00:19:11]:

And it like, what you were just speaking on was sort of leading into my next question, which is and, you know, this may seem obvious, but I'm sure you've got some things to say on it that would be, you know, refreshing for people to hear. Why is it so important to teach about pleasure in sex ed and how does, like, a comprehensive sex ed with everything you just listed inform our boundaries and, like, help us be able to have healthier boundaries with ourselves, you know, respect others' boundaries. Yeah.

Speaker A [00:19:41]:

Yeah. If you were to teach sex ed through a pleasure centered lens, you would see a delayed sexual initiation. You would see a, lowering of, sexually transmitted infections and unplanned pregnancies. You would see, more of a focus on a self proficiency on how your body works before engaging in and with somebody else's body. And, you would also experience more consensual behaviors. So those are the outcomes of this pleasure centered approach. Let me tell you how we get there. If we talk about what pleasure is and we are able to accurately describe how wonderful it is and how it is, it should be expected out of a certain behavior, then you're going to probably want to study well how to achieve that, which means starting with, how does my body even work? Where are these particular parts? What are they called? What happens when they are touched like this, When they are stimulated like this? Where are they located? How does it feel with certain temperatures? And, you know, am I able to, make it feel a certain way? So already just that lesson alone in studying yourself and getting a self proficiency means already knowing anatomy, knowing these parts, knowing where they're located, and, you know, what, you know, nerve endings can create in somebody's body.

Speaker A [00:21:24]:

So already that's just this biology class that they need. After you figure that out and you may decide, okay. I think I want to engage this body with somebody else's body whose body might look and have similar anatomy to me. I'm not sure. But I know that because it's no longer an I situation, it's a we, it's an us situation, I need to be able to feel comfortable enough to communicate with that person, ask questions, have a dialogue about what they want, what feels good, what tell them what I want and what feels good. So now I'm in a communications class, and I'm trying to figure out, is this a person that I can even talk to about these intimate things? Tell them what I know I'm deserving of, what my self worth is in order to feel pleasure, and to be able to show compassion and care toward them by asking them, what do you want because you have, you know, self worth, and you are deserving of pleasure too. If that is not a conversation that you can even have or you can even fathom engaging in, already you know that's probably not the right person. It's probably not the right time.

Speaker A [00:22:41]:

It might not be the right physical place to be engaging in this. Okay. Now let's say you have found that person, and you get to that now third level where you are starting to engage in these behaviors. You're asking those questions. They're being answered. They're asking you their questions. You're answering them. People are, oh my god, getting what they want, getting what they deserve, which is supposed to be pleasure, enjoyment, joy while being safe because they've been communicating how to go about these behaviors in a safe way, the end result means that so many healthy things had to take place in order for this, you know, reward to happen.

Speaker A [00:23:32]:

Okay. That is all that pleasure centered sex ed does, which sounds very logical because of how you are building up all of these steps, which means you are scrutinizing the kinds of people you are engaging with after you've already had a self proficiency about how your own body works. Because if you get to the point of, like, finding a person that that you do feel comfortable talking to, and then they have no regard for your pleasure or your body, and they feel entitled to do what they want whenever they wants it, and you've already had a self proficiency in how to get yourself off, why would you settle? Why would you, you know, engage in this when you know I already know how my body works? I'm not gonna waste my time with somebody who doesn't wanna try to spend time on me. I can just do this myself. Therefore, you have, like, that initiation with this person delayed. Maybe it's like, okay. Well, we can't even talk about this stuff yet. What makes us think that we can talk with our with our genitals? Okay.

Speaker A [00:24:40]:

So already you're like you know, there's all these filtering processes. If you're able to actually have these conversations, by default, it's gonna be consensual because you're literally telling them what feels good, what you want more of, what you like. You're asking them the same things. And it might be, oh, I thought that would be good, but it actually kinda hurt. Oh, okay. We're not gonna do that anymore. Right? But now the experience is actually going to be, much more delightful because people have been communicating. So all of these things are coming from communication, from knowing that you are deserving of pleasure and, therefore, communicating how to get it.

Speaker A [00:25:17]:

You are comfortable asserting boundaries because you know you are deserving of having them honored and respected. And you're already using all of these filter processes to gauge and assess if the other person is not respectful of those. This is probably not someone that I can do more with. Or you're seeing that this is someone who is honoring of your boundaries and you're, like, okay. I am willing to be more vulnerable with you as a result. But the problem is we have so many people that feel entitled to our bodies that they're not even considering at all what your needs are, that you are deserving of pleasure. They're in it for their own pleasure. They're trying to get what they want simply because they want it.

Speaker A [00:25:59]:

And so we have such a nonconsensual culture because of those that entitlement, because of power dynamics trying to, leverage their power and disempower you so that they can get what they want. And in other words, people aren't talking. People aren't scrutinizing, and people don't know how their bodies work. So they settle, and they settle for displeasure, or they end up being in unsafe situations. So that is why talking about pleasure has is so important. And yet, I think you can see how pleasure education does work in an elementary environment because we're just first getting them comfortable talking about, can you pronounce the word vulva? Do you know where that's located? Do you know how that's different than a vagina? Do you know where a penis is? Right? Do we understand that that's a private part? Do we understand what a healthy friendship looks like before we look at what a healthy romantic sexual relationship looks like? They need to be able to answer friendships, anatomy, and asserting boundaries that have nothing to do with intercourse before they even engage in intercourse. And this is why it lives in such a young environment because we're teaching them how to just human in ways that are safe, that are affirming, and that have joy. So that's why pleasure education is important and why it lives in every single grade level and has nothing to do with masturbation and all to do with anatomy, boundaries, and communication skills.

Speaker B [00:27:35]:

Hey, baby babes. Sorry to interrupt. I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. There you'll find extra bits and bobs like freebies, behind the scenes, or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the podcast. They'll also be, hopefully, inspiring, thought provoking conversations, and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a really supportive, educational, and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me and a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge group in Facebook, and I'll see you in there.

Speaker B [00:28:21]:

And now back to the episode.

Speaker C [00:28:24]:

Perfect. Mic drop. That was huge. I'm just beaming. That was so great. Yep. Fully agree with all of that. Don't even read.

Speaker C [00:28:36]:

Yeah. I know. God. It's so fucked up, isn't it? And it's yeah. Like you're saying that, that sort of entitlement to in particular, you know, entitlement, to women's bodies and this kind of trope that we get taught that, like, you know, sex is supposed to hurt the first time and and it's mainly for the guy's pleasure and most women don't even come anyway. So, like, it's just kind of gearing us towards, you know, settling and Yeah. Calling into that people pleasing role and kind of, you know, blowing past our own boundaries or, you know, probably just not even really having them or understanding how to have healthy boundaries in the first place, when it comes to sex because also then it's always very shrouded in, like, mystery and shame and, you know, I guess, just a lack of education and an ignorance around our anatomy, around what actually does feel good to us, and also around what it feels like to be respected and in, like you said, a really beautiful, mature, healthy friendship first and foremost, and feel safe with that person, feel seen, feel respected.

Speaker A [00:29:47]:

Right.

Speaker C [00:29:48]:

Most of those elements are completely missing in so many sexual encounters, especially when we're younger. Unfortunately, it happens when we're adults as well, but like definitely when we're young. It's just yeah. It's devastating. So Yeah. Completely agree with everything you've said. Don't even have anything to add to that. Love, love, love.

Speaker C [00:30:08]:

And I suppose that segues quite nicely into the segment get pregnant and die, which is my second segment, where I ask my guests if they have a story. I mean, this whole podcast episode so far has been a story about how sex ed has kind of failed you, because because you're just trying to deliver good sex ed and being absolutely punished for it. But if you had any other anecdotes around your sex ed maybe growing up or, how it's kinda done in the Philippines, like, what sort of, sex education you receive from that culture. I don't know. Anything you feel like shit? Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and Don't have sex in a missionary position. Don't have don't have sex standing up. Just don't do it. Promise?

Speaker A [00:30:58]:

Oh, it sucks all around, Freya. Sucks all around. I'll share, a US story from my 5th grade family life education class, and then I'll share some of the experience I've had doing some reproductive justice work in the Philippines. So my only sex ed that I ever received formally was at my Catholic school, 5th grade, family life education class. It was separated by genders, but our teacher for this class, was our homeroom teacher who who was, a woman, and we didn't have any, men teaching in our Catholic school. And so the only man associated with us in the 5th grade was our DARE officer, who is the drug prevention officer who comes in like, literal police officer who comes in to teach kids about drugs being bad and you shouldn't be doing it. So he came in to do the family life education for the boys while we were concurrently getting it from our female, 5th grade teacher. And, I have no idea what they covered in that in that side.

Speaker A [00:32:14]:

But I know that I had a classmate ask in our class, in the girls group, if boys get boners, what do girls get? And our teacher replied, periods. And that is the only sex ed I ever remember getting. There wasn't any talk about actual menstruation, so I didn't even know what a period was when that was said.

Speaker C [00:32:43]:

Oh my god.

Speaker A [00:32:44]:

There wasn't a talk about identity, you know. So we didn't know anything about whether or not, you know, gay was something that was even a possibility. We didn't learn about any anatomy, even in our science classes. We didn't learn about consent. We we just we didn't learn anything. I just remember that, you know, you're supposed to have a family after you've gotten married and it needs to be to a man, and, you know, raise them as God's children. And out of nowhere, because it was the only thing closest to a sex ed class, my classmate asked the boners period question. So that was my sex ed, and that's in the United States in a, very, upper class environment, highly educated, you know, demographic of, region in California, and that's what sex ed looked like.

Speaker A [00:33:36]:

Excuse me. And then as I became an adult and I started doing, some sex ed work in the Philippines where my family is from, I had, learned that, not only is the Philippines a very draconian Catholic, country, but it is so stigmatizing of premarital sex of any kind that even if you were to be prescribed birth control by your doctor, there have been stories of, young women being rejected at the pharmacy counter of their birth control because they weren't wearing a wedding ring. And, you know, getting lectures from the pharmacist about, you know, why are you asking for birth control? You're not married. This isn't right. What kind of Catholic are you? There's no separation of church and state in that country.

Speaker C [00:34:32]:

Oh my god.

Speaker A [00:34:34]:

I remember when I was doing my master's thesis or my my practicum, over there for 1 summer, there was a there was a lot of, like, protests around the sex ed curriculum that was starting to roll out, which was honestly still an abstinence only program but it was there were so many protests because there that was even being talked about in the school. But there was so much protest around this reproductive health movement and bringing it into school environments that they had banned a particular neighborhood in Manila, the capital, of sex toys. Like, if any sex toy was found in this region, I guess there would be a fine for the owner. And I made a joke to, like, a friend when I found out about this and I was reading about it, that, like, so are they banning, like, all shower heads and faucets also? Like, are we ampu are we gonna amputate everyone's fingers? Like, what? Like, are you kidding? Like, you know, massage, you know, machines that people are getting? Like, I mean, really? Like, this is this is what you're thinking is going to, quote, fix the sex addiction problem that you think this entire country is, you know, experiencing as a result of having a sex ed class that still only talks about abstinence. So it was just really frustrating that, you know, all of this was happening. So my sex ed was bad, and it's worse in other parts of the world, like my motherland.

Speaker C [00:36:05]:

Oh my gosh. It's so it just feels like a dystopian movie, doesn't it? It's just like this Kellogg's about to pop out any second and start, like, quarterizing clips again. Like, what the fuck? Mhmm. Oh my god. Yeah. Alright. Well, those were excellent examples of a get pregnant and die. Mhmm.

Speaker C [00:36:24]:

But devastating nonetheless. So I'd love to move more specifically towards chatting about boundaries. This is something so many people seem to struggle with. And also, I guess, like, not fully understand, you know, the definition of as well because I feel like now that there's all this therapy speak coming out, lots of people are, like, saying things that, you know, oh, that's the boundary and it's like, well, I don't know how that's the boundary so much. So I'd love to hear from you, like, you know, what actually is a boundary? What shapes and forms can they kinda take? And that can be in a dating context or other context. Just, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A [00:37:04]:

So there are definitely boundaries that have to do with only you as an individual that has nothing to do with anyone else. And it might be, for example, I'm setting a social media boundary that I'm only gonna be online on Instagram for 30 minutes a day. Okay? Like, that's your own boundary. That doesn't affect anyone else. I am not gonna be referring to that type of boundary. But, similarly, I am going to be referring to a boundary that helps you and supports you to protect your peace, your energy, and maybe how you spend your time. So the type of boundary I, tend to focus on in my line of work has to do with when it is in relation to another person or another group. So it becomes a we and us situation.

Speaker A [00:37:54]:

And there's something about that relationship that you want to, create some type of limits or guardrail on in order to maintain peace for yourself. It could be because you hate this person, it could be because this person makes you uncomfortable, it could be because, it's just not something that is going to serve your needs at that time. It's something that can change over time. It's not a set thing. It can be something that you initially set and then change your mind in the middle of that and say, actually, something different is better for me. And it, is something that people easily are offended by because they automatically assume it's the, this person hates me. They think it's the 1 of the 3 options I just listed. They think this person hates me.

Speaker A [00:38:54]:

This person wants to hurt me. This person is thinking about me as opposed to, no. This person's thinking about an us situation. So I'll start by saying my favorite quote around boundaries is from, my dear sis, Jana Lynn Umipig, who says, my boundaries are not meant to offend you. They are meant to honor me. Okay. So I start with that because as I explain a boundary, I want people to think about how it has nothing to do, oftentimes, with that other person that the boundary is being set with. It has to do with a person honoring themselves.

Speaker A [00:39:37]:

And, yes, it might impact you. But in the end, this person is making this choice for themself. Okay. So if I were to say, Freya, I don't wanna go out for pizza with you. Okay? So you're asking me, hey, you wanna grab pizza? And I say no. Sure. A reason would be I hate you. You That could be 1 reason.

Speaker A [00:40:04]:

A second reason could be, I'm not hungry. So why would I go out for pizza? A third reason could be, I'm hungry, but I don't wanna eat pizza. I'd rather get a burger. Or it could be, this is gonna take too long and I have other things that I need to do. I would like to spend time with you, but not in that way. So this is why I'm gonna say no. Right? My no could be many different reasons. But most people are going to jump to the, oh, Justine hates Freya.

Speaker A [00:40:39]:

That's why she said no to pizza. Not thinking about hunger, quality, time, whatever it is. Right? Let's say my real answer is, I, have a lot of work I need to get done. And if I go out for pizza with you, that's at least an hour out of my time. And, I want to be sure that if I spend time with you, it's quality time. It's time that my mind isn't elsewhere. I'm present. I can be a good friend, and I can enjoy this shared pizza experience with somebody.

Speaker A [00:41:16]:

And I'm assuming you would invite me to pizza because it's more fun to share food in community. And that's why you're making it an us, we situation. A lot of behavior can be more fun when it's shared. So this is why you invite people. But if you are inviting me and only accepting yes as an answer, then it already is telling me that you aren't actually in it for the us. You're in it for you. It's a it's an I situation. So when you ask me, hey, Justine, let's go grab pizza.

Speaker A [00:41:56]:

And I say, oh, no. I can't. I really got so much work I need to do. I can't do that. You're like, are you kidding me right now? Like, you asked me out to get coffee, and I left, and I went with you. I could have been doing work too. Right? So then I would go in and ask, like, okay. Well, Freya, why did you invite me? It's like, well, it'd be fun.

Speaker A [00:42:14]:

Like, I wanna catch up because I haven't seen you in a week, or I wanna talk about that guy you've been dating, or whatever it is. Right? It's more fun. But all of a sudden, if you're offended by my no, what it's telling me is you're really demanding and you really want this experience for yourself. So if this was, like, a sexual situation, what I've told students in the past, if you're not prepared for the no when somebody says they don't want to have sex with you, they don't want to hook up with you, you need to be okay with that. And if you just wanted to experience sexual pleasure, then just masturbate. Like, there's a reason that exists. Right? But if all of a sudden you're not ready for this no that has to do with a relational experience, it doesn't actually indicate that you are in it for the relationship, for the shared joy you would conjure together. If you were, you wouldn't want the person to settle.

Speaker A [00:43:14]:

To like, okay, fine. Let's go get pizza. Fine. Let's hook up. Like, that doesn't sound hot at all. Number 1. Number 2, it's not gonna be consensual. Number 3, if you were to find out that this person was settling for you, you'd be pretty devastated.

Speaker A [00:43:34]:

Number 4. If you were to find out that this person wants to have sex with you, but they wanna do it under a certain state of mind when they were really they're really present, they wanna have pizza with you when they're really present, it's probably gonna feel better under that circumstance. So it means that you're actually wanting to experience this event, this pizza or this sex, because you actually want to experience pleasure with them and to the maximal capacity. So you're not gonna settle for anything less. Okay. But we have a whole bunch of entitled, you know, assholes that are out there that don't go through all those steps because they're not in it for pleasure, shared pleasure. They're in it for their own personal, selfish, satisfaction or social capital, whatever it is. Right? So therefore, they're offended when a person says no to them.

Speaker A [00:44:28]:

But what I would say is that the most boundaried people tend to be the most compassionate people because they really respect and honor relationships that they aren't going to spend their relationship time when they're not fully present and fully engaged and there. Otherwise, I'll be like, okay. Fine. Let's go for pizza. And we have this hour together, and you're hearing me complain. You're hearing me, like, you know, give short answers. I'm not really wanting to be there. I mean, you got what you wanted, Freya.

Speaker A [00:45:05]:

You got me there. But did you really meet the objective of sharing joy? No. So but you got what you wanted. So me setting a boundary is not anything to do with you and more like, I value our relationship so much that when I spend time with you, I want you to know that you are deserving of a friend who can be fully present and engage with you. So I'm gonna say no so that I can make sure I get my stuff done that I know needs to get done. And when I'm done with that, I can show up for you in the way that you deserve from a good friend. That's what the compassionate part means. That's me setting a boundary that may have nothing to do with my opinion of you and all to do with the fact that I need to honor myself.

Speaker A [00:45:58]:

And right now, that honoring myself is meeting this deadline for a book and then getting that done so that I can now be present for my friend and be a good friend to enjoy this pizza with. But that is not how our world works because we are filled with entitled, narcissistic, selfish, noncommunicative people who are overly sensitive, and it makes it easy to just be entitled or to be a people pleaser and bypass any authenticity.

Speaker C [00:46:34]:

Oh my god. Totally. Totally. Totally. Yeah. And, like, that kinda brings to mind, you know, how I was kind of referring to people using the term boundary thing correctly and so their own kind of games. Like, I hear sometimes from, like, female clients, You know, that they're, like, boyfriend or husband has, like, stated that his boundary is that, you know, they need to be having sex at least this many times a week and and that's a boundary for him because that's what he, you know, that's what he requires to be, like, satisfied in this relationship. And I'm like, oh my god.

Speaker C [00:47:07]:

Honey, like, far out. And it's I like to kinda remind people, like, boundaries having a healthy boundary, it it shouldn't require anyone else to do anything. It's about, like, you setting a boundary for yourself and saying, this is something I am going to do to protect myself. You don't have to do anything. I'm not trying to get you to do anything or change anything other than just accept and respect this boundary that I'm putting in place to protect myself. And I love how you kind of framed it as being, like, the kindest and most compassionate thing to do. And I think when you think about I think, like, so many I don't know. Like, people are just really bad at saying no.

Speaker C [00:47:48]:

They're really bad at letting people down. They hate disappointing people. And this is, you know, where the people pleasing and the self sacrificing comes in. And I think that they really identify with being, you know, they like being liked and they they wanna they wanna be seen in a certain way. And so people pleasing is actually about controlling and curating, you know, other people's opinions of you and the way they treat you because of that. But then, of course, we're kind of sacrificing and bypassing our own needs in order to be liked and to kind of belong. And I think, like, something that, I always think about is, yeah, I fully lost my train of thought. I just tried to go on too many tangents.

Speaker C [00:48:29]:

It's okay. It's like, where was I going? I was really, like, into what I was about to say too. The beauty of having your own podcast. Yeah. I don't know if it's gonna come back. Anyway, I'll just talk and we'll see. So, yeah, like, reframing it as something compassionate and kind. Oh, that's right.

Speaker C [00:48:58]:

Oh my god. So people will be like, really, I don't know, just will feel justified in, boasting and in having 0 accountability in the interactions and kinda just, like, taking the easy route of, like, tapping out all together because that is easier to them. And I guess maybe feels kinder to them than, like, letting someone down or saying no to someone or being, like, hey. I'm actually not into this. Like, you know, in a in a dating context, say you've been on a couple of dates and this is such a common 1 that I know you help a lot of people with, with your Instagram account. You know, they just think, oh, I don't wanna hurt this person or, like, make them feel bad by saying I'm not interested. So they just don't say anything at all. And I'm like, what the fuck? Like, in what world is that the kind of option like that? They're literally gonna just go off on a million neurotic tangents in their head thinking, like, what it could have been, what they did, what they said, why you haven't responded.

Speaker C [00:50:01]:

If something's happened to you, maybe you died in a car crash, maybe you, you know, it's just so, like, inhumane to leave someone hanging like that. And I think that comes from, like, people's discomfort with, you know, just having boundaries. And I feel like you would probably have some stuff to say on that because I think you're trying to, like, solve this and help people do the, you know, the hard thing and construct a kind, mature, clear text message to avoid people being ghosted.

Speaker A [00:50:32]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I like that you keep bringing up the word kind because kindness means saying no. It can be kind to say no. It's, but yet people want to be nice. And nice and kind are very different things. Nice is superficial.

Speaker A [00:50:54]:

It is short term. It's not authentic. It's also very easy. It's very easy to be nice and so people will say, well, I'll do that 1 then because that's, you know, short term gratification. I, you know, can come off, you know, come off kind even if I'm not. And, if I just don't say anything at all, then, like, that minimizes hurt As opposed to being kind. Hey. It was really nice to finally get together and meet you in person.

Speaker A [00:51:28]:

I don't think we have enough chemistry to keep this going. But I do hope that you find someone that is more aligned with some of your interests because you are a really, you know, kind person and you deserve someone, who can entertain you in the way that you need. I just don't think that's me. Take care. Whatever. Okay. That's basically saying no. But I'm letting him know, hey.

Speaker A [00:51:54]:

You need to move on because it's not gonna be with me anymore. So you have an answer. You have not been accepted to this job. Apply elsewhere. Right? Go somewhere else. And I'm also telling you that, like, look, it has nothing to do with the fact that I hate you. It's just that we aren't the right match. And that is more often the issue with dating than, oh, he was an asshole.

Speaker A [00:52:19]:

Don't get me wrong. There are definitely a lot of real assholes out there and that it warrants you wanting to say no to them. But I really do genuinely believe that for the most part, when in a dating situation, it doesn't work. It doesn't have to do with the fact that somebody was an asshole. It has to do with the fact that there was no chemistry and that person is just not your match. That is it. You just don't have enough in common. You don't have the same vibe.

Speaker A [00:52:47]:

You know, you're not just vibing with them, and vibe does not equal assholery. But because people, are feeling more ease people feel more ease saying no to an asshole than saying no to a nonmatch. And in the end, it's weird because, like, assholes therefore get usually more communication, that they probably aren't deserving of, than people who just aren't a right match and deserve communication. And so I live in that space to support people, to communicate the boundary that this dating situation does not serve them. And, they want to be engaging in dating experiences that do. And it doesn't always have to do with the fact that the person's an asshole, so let me just communicate to you how to say no, and how you're not it for me. Best wishes. And so that is where my ghostwriting page, on Instagram lives.

Speaker A [00:53:58]:

And, that is not to say that there is never a good reason for, having to ghost someone. I think that if your safety is at risk, if you feel unsafe texting this person or being in communication, yeah, ghost. That makes sense. But for most people that are ghosting, it's just because they feel bad. They don't want to say something that's not nice. So they don't say anything at all. And that is where I come in to help, to give people scripts and templates to assert their boundary while also being compassionate.

Speaker C [00:54:38]:

Yeah. It's so important and it's such a last skill. And for whatever reason, somehow not to toot my own horn, but I've always been really good at that and very onto it. I've never ever ghosted anyone. I've always been very communicative and found it, you know, to be super important to explain myself and and why I don't want to keep hanging out with somebody or why I, you know, I'm gonna start behaving in a certain way. I think giving someone an explanation is, oh my God, it's so it's valuable. It's so kind. It gives them feedback.

Speaker C [00:55:14]:

It kind of allows them to just get that closure, understand where you're coming from, receive that clear explanation, and then move on rather than wondering and worrying and overthinking and, you know, just generally, disintegrating into into neuro.

Speaker B [00:55:33]:

Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and 5 star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster, and it's really easy to just quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving 5 stars for the show on Spotify or even better, writing a written review and leaving 5 stars over on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're a real overachiever, you can do them both. That would be mad. If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use g rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates. Lame.

Speaker B [00:56:25]:

Anyway, I would personally recommend doing that right now while you're a member just to get on top of it and let me know you're with me on this journey. Thanks, gang. Enjoy the rest of the epi.

Speaker C [00:56:36]:

So, yeah, just for everyone listening, if it feels a little bit, choppy and changey and jarring, it's because we're having a lot of Internet issues and we keep having we keep dropping out. And, I mean, I even had time to go and take a dump while you were getting your Internet stuff worked out. So don't worry about it. That's fine. We're having a fun time over here. Alright. Well, maybe let's do the segment TMI before I just ask my last couple of questions. Do you have a TMI story for us that you're willing to

Speaker A [00:57:09]:

share? Can, I forgot I forgot reading that segment in your email? Can you give me, like, some more context, like, in, like, what way?

Speaker C [00:57:17]:

I guess anything to do with, like, sex or periods or dating or bodily functions. Basically, anything that, like, if you went out there to your, like, partner's parents and you were sitting around the dinner table with a whole bunch of family, you would probably be hesitant to talk about. And I don't know the relationship you've got with them, but

Speaker A [00:57:37]:

Yeah. You you

Speaker C [00:57:38]:

know the gist.

Speaker A [00:57:39]:

It would be most things about my dating life, since they are, immigrants, immigrants. And,

Speaker C [00:57:49]:

it's

Speaker A [00:57:49]:

it was already funny telling my partner that I was gonna be recording for the labia lounge at his parents' house, and he was just like, that's fine. They don't even know what a labia is. And so they

Speaker C [00:57:59]:

wouldn't even know what My god.

Speaker A [00:58:01]:

This. And I'm like, great. It's, like, so unknown that it's a nonissue.

Speaker C [00:58:10]:

Yeah. Can

Speaker A [00:58:11]:

I skip this 1? Because I don't think yeah. I have No.

Speaker C [00:58:14]:

It's okay. That's fine. I mean, that that in itself is like, that's great. That's like, you know, my my parents in law wouldn't even know what a labia was. Like, that's that's perfect. I do get that. Like, when people hear what my podcast called and you say, like, the the cogs turning, they're like labia. What was that? Labia, labia lounge? And then they're like, and you're just sitting there going, I wonder if they know what that is.

Speaker C [00:58:36]:

And whether they're clocking that or whether they think they know what that is, but then they're like, no. No. No. It can't be that though. Right. You know? Oh god. Alright. So let's talk some, like, practical tips for people because, honestly, people fucking suck at this.

Speaker C [00:58:50]:

And, you know, there's reasons for that, and I am compassionate for people that are not great at, you know, saying no or putting in firm boundaries. But I would love for this to be a more common skill.

Speaker A [00:59:02]:

Yeah.

Speaker C [00:59:03]:

And I would love to encourage people, if you, you know, get the opportunity at some point soon. I think, like, especially, what I've noticed is, like, a lot of dating app culture, this is very needed. Mhmm. And whenever I've been super communicative and just explained, hey. Like, I'm just not feeling this because this is missed. People are just like, so they're like, oh my god. That's so refreshing. Like, what? You're an actual you know, actually communicate.

Speaker C [00:59:32]:

Oh, I'm like, what the hell? How like, this is terrible that the standards are this low that I I literally will get people, like, in the past, I have had so many people be way more keen on me and actually then not respect the boundary that I've laid down by saying, hey, I'm not maturely and clearly that they're like, oh my god. This chick's amazing. I gotta hang on to her. And so they'll just,

Speaker A [01:00:01]:

like, keep

Speaker C [01:00:02]:

trying and keep fixing.

Speaker A [01:00:04]:

It's like it's like you're doing your own success.

Speaker C [01:00:08]:

Seriously. Yeah. I hear you. Can't even help it. Alright. So how do we do a great like, how do we make a great goodbye text? And this could be also for, like, you know, I think it's really tricky sometimes when you need to end friendships as well. That is a thing that doesn't get talked about as much. It's not just like romantic or sexual things.

Speaker C [01:00:27]:

Sometimes we need to end a relationship or put a boundary in place for a period of time with a friend or a family member. What kind of goes into constructing a really solid a solid 1 that people can't argue with? They can't really, you know, they've they've got no recourse. They have to just go, okay. Like, I I this has been clearly laid out for me, and that's that.

Speaker A [01:00:47]:

Yeah. So what I'll say first before we get into, like, a formula that can work for many people is that I want the person, before they start composing their boundary, to recognize that they are deserving of setting a boundary. I think some of them are like, oh, those are for, like, those are for, like, more, like I don't know. Those are for, like, worthy people. Like, I I that's that's why it's just easier for me to just brush this aside and and I'm like, no. No. No. Every single person is deserving of this.

Speaker A [01:01:24]:

You are deserving of pleasure. And if this does not bring you that, you are deserving of asserting, you know, otherwise. And so, 1, you're deserving of it, and 2, when you do assert this boundary, as my sis from that quote earlier I said, mentions, it's about honoring yourself. So if a person does not make you feel safe honoring yourself or if a person doesn't allow you to honor yourself after you've done so, that's its own filter that this person is not someone that should be in your life. Whether it's a friend, whether it's a person you're dating, whatever it is. K? That's not a real 1 because they aren't allowing you to honor yourself. Okay. Now you've got, like, the you're you're pepped up.

Speaker A [01:02:11]:

The pep rally is over. I've given you confidence as to why you should even do this. There's a, a therapist, acronym that, is out there that happened to actually align really well with what I was doing without even knowing it existed, but I'm gonna, reference it. It's called Dear Man. I'm only gonna go over the Dear part because that's mainly what I use. But Dear stands for describe, express, assert, and reinforce. So as those words would suggest, here's basically, kind of my formula for setting a boundary slash saying no to somebody. The compliment sandwich is like an easy way to go.

Speaker A [01:02:57]:

It can be a, 2 bread situation compliment sandwich. You can do an open face sandwich if you would like. Totally up to you. Depends on the situation. But, basically, it involves you stating what is happening and you saying, here is how it doesn't align with me, and then ending by saying, you know, I wish us well because this is something we are both deserving of. So it might be, like, if we're doing a 2 bread compliment sandwich. Hey. Really nice to finally meet up with you after chatting for so long on the app.

Speaker A [01:03:33]:

Great. There's your first bread compliment. Second 1, it was although it was really great to learn about your love of gaining. K. Now we're gonna get into the assertion part here. It doesn't align very much with how I like to spend my free time. I do wish and hope that you find somebody that would be a great partner for you to share that activity with because you're a really kind person who has a lot of passion, just not in the same place that matches mine. Take care.

Speaker A [01:04:12]:

Be well. Goodbye. Whatever it is. Right? So, like, you're reinforcing that this person is totally valid. They're just not a match for you. And that's okay. Right? And you're wishing them well because you do want to wish them well. It's just in a direction that's not with you again.

Speaker A [01:04:29]:

That's it. So describe, express, assert, reinforce.

Speaker C [01:04:37]:

Amazing. Simple, easy to follow, kind.

Speaker A [01:04:43]:

Honest. Honest. Yeah. Honest. Honest.

Speaker C [01:04:46]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, like, it it can also be, I think, like, another really common instance that I see a lot through my work, where people are shying away from asserting a boundary and instead kind of going along with something is like in a in a sexual setting, in a dating setting, maybe they've had a date or they've had a kiss and then they just feel like, oh, well, I've kinda come this far and like, god, now I kinda just owe it to them and, you know, they're expecting this. And of course, there's that, you know, entitlement that we're kinda getting from the other side where, like, if they're behaving as though they're entitled to our pleasures, so then it's even harder for us to, you know, separate what's kind of reality and and what's just their expectations that they're impressing upon us that are making us feel more and more pressured to go along with something. And so many it is unbelievable, and I get it. Like, I've definitely experienced, like, versions of this in the past.

Speaker C [01:05:46]:

But, again, like, for some reason, somehow, I was always very, like, no. I'm not fucking doing it. I'm not sucking you. To eat. What? No. I don't wanna do that. I'm gonna do it. Yeah.

Speaker C [01:05:56]:

But I do I do I have experienced in, like, other ways, like, oh, it is make waves or, like, making this person feel bad in the moment. Right. Often, there's a safety element, of course, if you're a woman in particular. In person, so you don't have the luxury and the time to construct the text and follow the formula. Yeah. Like, how do you suggest asserting a boundary, or preparing yourself, you know, so that your first kind of instinct is to actually tune into what you want or don't want and go with that rather than just quickly being like, oh, yep. Okay. Cool.

Speaker C [01:06:42]:

Like, I'm just doing this thing now and

Speaker B [01:06:44]:

Yeah. Whatever.

Speaker A [01:06:46]:

So in in the in person is obviously harder. But what I will say for someone who tends to carry less power in that relationship, whatever that, you know, identity you have that has less power than the person you might be with. I don't want you to feel like the onus is on you to maintain or create that safety. It's really the responsibility of both parties, but I don't want you to think that you're the 1 that has to lead this charge. If I I want you to assess, how does this person react when you disagree with them, when you change your mind about something. Because even in those little situations let's say you're going out for drinks and, you are at the bar, and they're saying, hey. Let me order for you. And you're like, okay.

Speaker A [01:07:42]:

Cool. I'll get the, I'll get that martini. And then the waiter comes over to get the order, and you say, oh, actually, I think I'll get a margarita. That's what I mean by just changing your mind. Right? See how they react. If they're already getting explosively volatile and angry because you have changed your mind of what you want to drink because you want to have pleasure with what you are drinking, they seem already to be someone that isn't going to respect and honor any boundary you wanna set. Right? They should just be like, oh, yeah. No problem.

Speaker A [01:08:22]:

Like, you sure you want margarita? We can get both. You know, whatever it is. They could respond in a way that's really kind and like, oh, this is a safe person to change my mind with. Right? Okay. Let's say they say, hey. Do you wanna grab an appetizer here, or do you just want drinks? And you're and, you know, they say, oh, let's get an appetizer. And you're like, actually, I'd rather go to an actual restaurant to get the appetizer. Maybe we finish the drink here and then we can move to another place.

Speaker A [01:08:52]:

So you're disagreeing with them here. How do they respond? Right? If they're like, well, we're already here, we might as well just get it. Right? Or something like that. They're like, woah. Okay. So these are, like, little things that I know a lot of femmes have charged it started to implement in their dates to already test the amount of entitlement, the amount of narcissism, the amount of, selfishness that the person they're with may have and carry. Because if they can't even do that, girl, get the fuck out of there. Like, you know what? I gotta wash my hair.

Speaker A [01:09:31]:

My cat needs to go for a walk. I gotta go. Right? But I don't want you to feel like the onus is on you to assess safety. Like, they should be also doing their part here. And if you're feeling like, okay. Cool. They were alright with me changing from a martini to a margarita. Alright.

Speaker A [01:09:48]:

Good. That's a good sign. So then now, maybe you already have an idea that there might be some there could be chemistry. That's possible because there's safety being cultivated. So I want you to just be thinking of those as opposed to how do I write this formulaic goodbye script. Right? Now let's say you have or have not done some of those, like, things in the date, and you're finding, yeah, we're not vibing here. Sometimes it is easier to not do it in person and just say, thanks so much for dinner. Those grapes were really great.

Speaker A [01:10:20]:

Have a good rest of your night. You part ways. Then you text them the dear man situation, right, if you wanna do that. They might say, oh, hey. I had so much fun tonight. I'd love to see you again. And maybe you do say, you know, let me check my schedule, but let's be in touch over text. Or it's like a, let me let's just be in touch over text.

Speaker A [01:10:39]:

Right? Or if you are feeling like it is safe enough for you to reject them right then and there because when you change your drink from a martini to margarita, you decided, you know, let's not do appetizers and you disagree with them, it might be safe enough to actually say, you know, it was really nice meeting you. I just don't think we have enough in common to keep this going. But you're a really sweet person and I do hope you find somebody. Or maybe it's like a, I felt more of a friend vibe here and I would really be down to keep hanging out with you, but not in a romantic context. How would you feel about that? You can do that. For many people, they might stare like, oh, let's just text about it. You know? And then you can have that safety net of, you know, a screen presence. But sure, if you feel safe enough doing it, go for it.

Speaker A [01:11:30]:

I mean, it is the most humane thing to do, but I also recognize it's so human that it can be really hard to do.

Speaker C [01:11:42]:

Yeah. Totally. I think that's, yeah, that's such good advice. They're kinda, like, gauging how they respond or react to, yeah, to to sort of little little examples of you asserting Yeah. Your needs or, you know, just seeing how kind of adaptable they are and how committed they are. They're creating safety and being being like a safe person you can feel comfortable with. Because, yeah, there's so many little signs you can be looking out for before you hit the sheets. It's tricky when, like, I've definitely found some people do all the right things and say all the right things.

Speaker C [01:12:24]:

But then when it comes to a sexual context, that's where their entitlement actually reads it. And it's like, woah. Okay. I totally had this go wrong. I thought this person was like yeah. And then it's just like they're a completely different person in that context. In that in that situation, it can also feel more difficult to assert boundaries. But I would just I would just say, like, you know, I've done it a lot a lot a lot a lot of times where I've, like, been literally in bed with someone and we have kissed or at least cuddled or there's been physical contact and I've just gone, hey, I'm not not actually like down to do anything sexual or I don't wanna go any further.

Speaker A [01:13:04]:

Yeah.

Speaker C [01:13:05]:

Sometimes, of course, you know, that might not be safe and I get why people just go along with things, but I would yeah. I guess I would, like, challenge you to to test test whether they respect your boundaries in that context as well. Right. And just speak up your needs because, you know, even if you are like, I do like this person and I do wanna have sex with them. But I just don't really want to right now. I'm not ready or it's

Speaker A [01:13:26]:

not the

Speaker C [01:13:27]:

right time. And I know that it'll it'll be a lot better. Yeah. You know, like, I'll often say, like, I really enjoy sex when there's a lot of, like, familiarity and and comfort and safety because I've known someone for a little while and we've been kind of, you know, seeing each other for a little while. And so I just know that like, you know, we could have sex now, but it's not going to be that great for me because there isn't that rapport that's being built yet Or, you know, we could wait a little while. And you know, it's not that it's a forever no. It's just a right now, this isn't what I feel like doing and it's not going to be as good for me because I don't trust you yet. Right.

Speaker C [01:14:01]:

You know, you can actually just explain that to people. And yeah. Of course, not everyone's gonna take it amazingly, but hopefully, you know, we've done our kind of preliminary homework and we've tried to kind of separate the weight from the chaff before we wind up physically, you know, in someone's bed. So, yeah, I would just like challenge people to listen to their bodies a little bit more when you're in that situation. It's never too late to be like, you know what? I've changed my mind here. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A [01:14:32]:

Do Do

Speaker C [01:14:32]:

you have anything to add to that or any tips for people before we wrap up?

Speaker B [01:14:37]:

Hey. Me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it 5 stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I wanna mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote, tea, togs. Yep. You heard that right. I even have labia lounge bathers, or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So, if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my buy me a coffee donation page, which is actually called buy me a soy chai latte because I'll be the first to admit, I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that. And, yes, that is my coffee order.

Speaker B [01:15:16]:

You can do a 1 stop donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as 3 fat ones a month. And I also offer 1 on 1 coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way. So every bit helps because it ain't cheap to put out a sweet podcast, into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be undyingly grateful Salty. And, I'll pop the links in the show notes. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself. Salty. And, I'll pop the links in the show notes.

Speaker B [01:15:53]:

Thank you. Later.

Speaker A [01:15:55]:

Yeah. Just a reminder that, like, should you set that boundary and they don't react amazingly to it, you have some data there that, in the long term, this is probably not a person that you're going to be able to maximize pleasure with. So use that data and, and and move forward accordingly. Because the real people that want to make sure you're safe, that wanna protect you, that are gonna back you up are the people that still stand by you when you set boundaries, even if it means they are, rejected. Right? My closest friendships are the ones that I say no to all the time. Hey. You wanna grab brunch? Hey. You wanna catch this movie? Like, you know or we're on the phone, and it's, like, now been 2 hours.

Speaker A [01:16:52]:

And I'm just like, hey, I gotta go. Like, my extraversion battery is gone. You know, whatever it is, like I can say those to the real people that are in my life and I can't say those to the people I feel unsafe with, that I feel

Speaker C [01:17:06]:

pressure

Speaker A [01:17:07]:

to impress. Like, those aren't Mhmm. Those aren't comfortable relationships. But, you know, sometimes I have to do it because it's a supervisor. Sometimes I have to have that because I'm making money from that situation. So there are other things there. But if this is your social life, you get to you get to be the boss of that. This is your time.

Speaker A [01:17:27]:

This is your pleasure. This is your body. So if there is a place that you can curate pleasure, then why not do it? You're deserving of that.

Speaker C [01:17:40]:

Yeah. Fucking earth. And I think, like, what you're saying about it being data and that is that being like a a measurement or a barometer that you can use to gauge whether this person is someone that's safe and gonna respect your boundaries. Like, you know, maybe start if you've got no idea of what that feels like and you, this is new and it's always been challenging for you. Maybe using the people in your life that you do feel safe with and you know are solid to practice this and practice saying no more frequently and just feeling what it feels like to say no and have that respected, so that you can be, you know, using that as your yardstick when you're in a romantic situation or with a new person that you're less sure of.

Speaker A [01:18:22]:

Yeah.

Speaker C [01:18:22]:

You can kind of refer to like, oh, well, when I, you know, I've got this friend or my sister and I said no. And I explained and she was really great about it and she was just, like, so respectful and made me feel really okay with saying no and that felt great. Like, if it's not like that, then, like, fuck it all.

Speaker A [01:18:38]:

Yeah.

Speaker C [01:18:39]:

Yeah. Yeah. So practicing in a safe setting to get an embodied experience of what that's like, and then starting to really practice it in, in new connections as well just to see and to gauge. And you can really, you can figure out so much about someone

Speaker A [01:18:54]:

Mhmm. When you say no.

Speaker C [01:18:55]:

Quite early on with this with this tactic.

Speaker A [01:18:58]:

Yeah. And and the last thing I'll say, Freya, is that, you know, people pleasing now is just resentment later. Nobody wants that from both parties. So just be And

Speaker C [01:19:10]:

not a good precedent to set from the start. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I love well, I reckon we'll wrap it up there. Is there anything that you want to end with or plug? I know you've got some really cool projects in the works from just perusing your Instagram account. I'll put all your links in the show notes as well so people definitely go and follow that.

Speaker C [01:19:33]:

But yeah. What what would you like to give a shout out to that you're working on at the moment?

Speaker A [01:19:39]:

Let's see. If you are a caregiver of children ages 0 to 18, subscribe to Audible. I have a course coming out in August called, How to Talk to Kids About Sex, So tune in for that. If you're already a subscriber, or if you're not yet, you can learn a lot from me in 6 episodes, through that course, which I'm very excited to be released. And this is the first place that I'm shouting it out. I'll be doing a whole campaign for it next month, but, why not talk about it right now? And then, yeah, find me on social media if you are in need of a script, a template to set a boundary with any type of person in your life, whether it's someone you're dating, whether it's a family member, let whether it's a a friend, a coworker, I am your friendly ghostwriter. So hit me up, make that request, and I will craft it for you. My Instagram handle is at_goodperiodbuys_.

Speaker A [01:20:42]:

And my personal page is I am justineaf. So you can find me there. And, for, information about all the other work that I do outside of Instagram and Audible, justinefonte.com.

Speaker C [01:20:55]:

Amazing. Alright. It's been so wonderful chatting with you. Thank you for being so generous with your time.

Speaker A [01:21:01]:

Thank you, Freya. Enjoy.

Speaker B [01:21:03]:

And that's it, darling hearts. Thanks for stopping by the labia lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it, just waiting for you to sink back in for some more double l action next time. If you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode or leave a review on Itunes, then you can pat yourself on the snatch because that's a downright act of sex positive feminist activism and you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatize with this here podcast. I'm also always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered, questions or guest suggestions, so feel free to get in touch via my website or over on Insta. You can also send me in TMI stories to be shared anonymously on the pod. My handle is freyagraf_thelabialounge. If my account hasn't been deleted for being too sex positive, which, you know, is always a possibility with censorship, but just in case the chronic censorship finally does obliterate my social channels, I'd highly recommend going and joining my mailing list and snagging yourself some fun freebies for the trouble at www.freaghraft.com/freebies.

Speaker B [01:22:13]:

Anyway, later labial legends. See you next

Speaker C [01:22:21]:

time.