Reclaiming Birth - A Journey of Reverence, Deconditioning and Personal Power

Freya Graf:

This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets. Welcome. Welcome, my lovely lumps, or should I say lovely Labs? I'm so thrilled to have you here in the labia lounge to yarn about all things sexuality, womanhood, holistic health, and everything in between, your legs. Can never help myself. Anyway, we're gonna have vag loads of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up. You're about to receive the sex ed that you'd never had and have a bloody good laugh while you're at it. Before we get stuck in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this, the Penang people.

Freya Graf:

It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content on Noongar country, and I pay respect to their elders past, present and emerging. Now if you're all ready, let's flap and do this. Oh, God. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. I'm leaving it in. It's my podcast. Hey, all my beautiful labial lounges. Welcome back to the lounge.

Freya Graf:

All right. So today I've got an esteemed guest with me to talk about birth and how to prepare and learn to advocate ourselves in order to have an empowering birth experience. So let me introduce Nathan Reilly, MD, who is a board certified OBGYN and fellow of ACOG who left the medical industry complex due to his disillusionment with the, Inverted commas, quote quote marks, standard of care within Sure. Dimensional maternity care model. Doctor Riley now focuses his time on upholding the traditional practice of midwifery. He supports midwives as a collaborative physician for midwives of all varieties in over 20 states. He's an advocate for home birth and still attends births For those in need, he boasts a c section rate of under 5%, which is one of the best in the US. And we're gonna talk about why this is really amazing and important.

Freya Graf:

His mission is to uphold midwifery as the art that it is and to honor birth as a sacred process and the transition to parenthood As spiritual transformation. Doctor Riley empowers women to have babies on their own terms using nature as our guide. He also helps fathers embrace the opportunity to connect with birth and their partners through pregnancy and birth, encouraging them to go deeper versus distancing themselves from this stigmatized but magical rite of passage. Oh my god. I'm actually so excited to have you. I heard you on a pretty massive podcast. I think maybe it was the lifestyle is podcast, and I'm pinching myself a little bit that you agreed to be on my humble Little potty. So welcome, Nathan.

Nathan :

Hey. It's my pleasure. No podcast is humble. It is a tremendous amount of work to do this. So to be invited on to somebody else's show that you're gonna give me some time and you're gonna spend time editing and all of that, I almost I can't remember the last time I said no. It is a real honor, so thank you for having me.

Freya Graf:

Amazing. Alright. So let's just launch in. Can you please tell us a little bit about what, what had you becoming so disillusioned in the 1st place? Like when you were just, you know, going with The flow in the mainstream medical system of birthing, and then, you know, why you've kind of felt, strongly enough to diverge from that now.

Nathan :

Yeah. Well, I mean,

Freya Graf:

where how far do you you know, do you have to go back to start

Nathan :

to, like, Put the pieces together, you know, as to where you found yourself and, you know, hindsight's always 2020. You I think many of us doctors go into medicine because we're afraid we're not gonna be Valuable if we aren't putting our brains to, quote, helping people. But my way of helping people never really seemed to be reflected, in my training. I mean, like, you're surrounded by really good people throughout medical school and premed. Like, you're meeting everybody's really a good person, I think, deep down. I I'm at least optimistic about That. But then you're you're kind of shuttled into this sort of more and more narrow sort of boxes to what you're expected to do if you wanna Help people. And if you're gonna act outside of that box, then you're considered, you know, a a dilettante.

Nathan :

You know? You're you're the bad guy. You're you're Not a good student or whatever. And I just that's where I found myself. So I I remember, this is before we had children, but I was in residency. And and It's one of my my the stories I like to tell the most because it's actually what I remember. I remember going and laying down in the call room, waiting on the next phone call that was gonna prompt me to go and do something to a person who's in labor. And you're so tired. Like, I I don't know what it's like to train in the UK or Australia or wherever else in the world, but in the United States, OB GYN training is some of the hardest.

Nathan :

Like, we are working our butts off In order to just keep our head above water, like, I remember getting I was getting sick. I just it was like, I'm falling apart here, and my Program director is telling me my family is supposed to come 2nd, and it's like, I, like, I just need to get through this. Like, should I drop out? Should I do whatever? And then the phone rings again. You go and do an exam, and then the phone rings you, and you go in and do an do an exam. And I'm like, at some point, I just, like, either smash this pager Or I figure out some other way to do it. So I I even remember having to put the pager, which is a beeping, vibrating box. We actually had pagers like drug dealers had. A pager.

Nathan :

I had to put it, like, either under my my testicles when I was, like, laying down because if I fell asleep, I wasn't gonna wake up, or I put it right on my throat. It would have to vibrate me out of my stupor, and I'd zombie mode, like, like, would have to go to the exam room and do this thing.

Freya Graf:

And at some point,

Nathan :

I was like, enough. Like, I'm not doing any more exams. I'm not doing it. It's not I don't like waking up, and it was very selfish. It was like, I'm tired of waking up to do these exams. What am I doing? Like, I am not getting any sleep. I am pissed off at everybody, including my now wife. And suddenly, the outcomes were getting better.

Nathan :

I wasn't doing as many c sections. My all of my my clients, I call them clients now. They weren't patients. You're not sick because you have a baby Inside of you, they were all doing better. They were having vaginal birth. Like, I had this decreasing c section rate so much so that they were like, you're not doing enough c sections to get through your training. I was like, well, I better do more c sections. So I would just start going in on other cases.

Nathan :

They weren't my clients, but they were My junior resident's like, let me assist. I'll I'll I'll show you. And it's like, well, you've done a 1,000,000 of these. You did a good job. Okay. And I go back and lay down. So all of that is to say that I guess at some point early on, I probably already suspected I didn't really fit into that model. But then I actually had some validation by doing less and getting better outcomes.

Nathan :

And that's I've just doubled down on that, you know, having left the system, and now I've earned the privilege of being able to sit back and not intervene unless absolutely necessary.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Nathan :

And my clients, their partners, the babies, they're all better as a result.

Freya Graf:

So interesting because, yeah, I sort of, my ears pricked up, and I I picked up on just some language that you're using when you were in that Mainstream system, and they were kind of expecting you to go in there, and you said, do something to this, you know, this client. And that is that's really, like, the crux of what I find a bit of an issue. It is like, you know, we're really and I talk to clients. I'm like, cool. So I know that you're used to going in and when you are touched on the genitals, it's usually quite clinical and medical or sexual. But in that clinical medical Setting someone's doing something to you and it's quite disempowering, you know, you're not particularly in control. You kind of just have to like lie there and cop it. And they're really expecting you to go in there, get something done, do something, you know, get get a result.

Freya Graf:

Whereas, you know, your kind of more hands off approach when you stopped doing that was so powerful because you noticed people were getting better outcomes from you not intervening as much, which is amazing.

Nathan :

Yeah. Let me add something to that because there you just, something just dawned on me, which is, you know, I mean, we're we're talking to this is a podcast called the Labia Lounge. Like, there is obviously I mean, I've got a a uterus lit up in neon behind me right now, giving everybody the middle finger. I am a man. I'm married to my high school sweetheart, and I love having sex. I she is a bombshell to me. Like, I don't know if she's everybody's cup of tea, but is definitely my cup of tea, and we've known each other since we were 16. She was my first.

Nathan :

She will hopefully be my last. I mean, unless we get into, like, orgies and polyamory, which, you know, who knows what the future holds. But Totally. The reason I'm saying this is that, like, Before I went into medical school, of course, like, you're a you're like a 25 year old, and you just wanna fuck everything in sight. Sorry for my language, But, like, that's what we do as young people. We love having sex. There's nothing better than having an orgasm. All of that is true.

Nathan :

And Now a doctor, a male or a female, has to go into this setting. And, unfortunately, I think a lot of OB GYNs and other types of doctors have kind of screwed us in a way by doing, You know, let's just say selfish and, violent and disgusting things to women under anesthesia. They touch them in certain ways. Women don't feel safe with many doctors, especially white, you know, people in white coats all the time. And so we've divided this into, like, treating a woman's genitals is either sexual or it's not sexual. And if it's in the nonsexual category, now you've objectified them. And now you touch them in certain ways that actually makes them feel like a farm animal. And and that's where the language of doing something to them comes from.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Nathan :

But now but I and I've always Try you have to balance those 2 those 2 sort of options out, but the reality is it's actually both at the same time. And that doesn't mean that when you're going in to do an exam, That you're like, oh, yeah. I get to touch the genitals. Like, no. There's no bit of that. But it also requires some sensitivity and some sensibility as to what, How vulnerable this privilege is that you get to be with this person. They are opening their legs up to not to have sex with their partner or to have you know, to engage in some, I don't know. Just some intimate anything.

Nathan :

They're opening those legs up to you in hopes that you're gonna honor and respect that that is typically what that experience is all about. So it's not just, okay. We're not gonna be sexual. So let's just poke and prod as if we're, like, You know, taking care of a house plan. Mhmm. So there's this balance that has to be has to be kind of play out, and I don't see that balance really Playing out in many of these conversations, let alone in the actual conventional maternity care model in many of the developed nations. So I don't know. What do you what do you think about that? I mean, this is, like, kind of tricky waters, I think.

Freya Graf:

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Especially, I can't imagine being, you know, a male doctor as well. That's even more, difficult territory. And I think, you know, Male teachers find this really tricky because, obviously, children, young children, they really benefit from touch and from affection and hugs, and they're Tactile creatures, but, you know, a male teacher all of a sudden has to be super, super, super careful, which is understandable. So it's just a little Aside, but for me in my work, I find myself talking about this a lot because I do something called yoni mapping therapy, which Yeah. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

I was like, I don't know if he's heard of it. So that involves quite a therapeutic approach to Position of being trusted to be allowed inside this kind of inner landscape of a of a woman's pelvis, And they've usually never experienced this sort of environment when it comes to genital touch. It's either clinical and medical where they're kind of just Trying to check out of their bodies and get it over with, and it's quite unpleasant and very sterile and very, wham bam, thank you, ma'am. Maybe even a bit painful, Definitely cold, cold hands, cold lube, cold speculum, very kind of businesslike And then sexual and erotic. So they're they're very different ends of the spectrum. Whereas I'm trying to find this beautiful middle ground where it's it's, You know, therapeutic, it's nurturing and relaxing. It's educational. It's interesting.

Freya Graf:

It's this opportunity for them to observe, You know what it feels like to engage or be touched on these areas of the body and have tension released or have, like, You know, gentle touch that is not goal oriented for any reason, sexual or medical, and it's purely for them and with them. And I always say, I'm not gonna do anything to you. I'm not gonna push or force my way in. We are cocreating this experience, And I'm in service to you. So I'm gonna hold a finger at the entrance, and you're gonna take some deep belly breaths, and we're just gonna wait and go at the pace of your body. And if your Pelvic floor muscles sort of soften around my finger or draw me in. Great. If they don't, we don't push, and it could take 10 seconds.

Freya Graf:

It could take 10 minutes. And it's just this sort of, yeah, quite a unique experience that we don't we don't often get, and and, it's so important that it feels like it's Within their control, it's at their pace, and they're empowered through every step of the way. And there's, you know, consent that they can take back any time. Right. I just think, like, in the medical system, we don't have we don't have time for that. There's no framework for that. And if you did try to have a really I imagine if you did try to have, like, Really beautiful, nurturing, gentle approach, especially as, like, an attractive male doctor. It might be seen as, like, I don't know.

Freya Graf:

Like, not professional enough or a bit creepy or a little like, it's just a bit unusual. And so, Yeah. There might be some assumptions made there. So I can't imagine how tricky that must be. But, god, it's nice when someone just has a beautiful bedside manner, And they're just being so reverent and so honoring, and they're communicating with you the whole way. Yeah, it is, you know, and I that's what I love about your language and your approach. Yes. I know I'm gonna that's my rant.

Nathan :

Well, yeah. I since we're just flowing here, I, The reverence piece, I think that's actually what's lacking here. You know, we we see I think a lot of us Doctors in this reductive way that we view and have have really been conditioned to objectify the process. Because on the one hand, if I'm gonna cut into your belly And I'm, you know, I'm I'm looking at Freya. That's different. Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna cut into your belly with a scalpel. No. I need to see this as a project To to to

Freya Graf:

Oh, wow. Yeah.

Nathan :

Completely versus in birth, you are right there. Your legs are open. You're exposed in all of the ways that only your, maybe, partner would see you. And that so we have a hard time not objectifying find that knowing we have a job to do. But the cervix, you know, is what a lot of people talk about. And this cervix thing, you know, I you and I were You you're you're aware that I've got this program around HPV and cervical health and the cervical cancer screening process and all of that. What I've learned about the cervix is, first off, we've we we focus way too much on cervical dilation, but we can get into that later. What I would really love to impress upon people is who are working in this field is that even though you, you know, You don't wanna be you're you're not you can't be a creep.

Nathan :

Like like, this is not a sexual experience, but holding reverence for the fact That the cervix is an erogenous zone, that there this is an area of sexual pleasure. Holding a reverence For that as a foundation for the rest of what's to come is actually still important. You don't need to have it as, like, You're either a creepy perv or you're a car mechanic. Like, there has to be some middle ground without you slipping into this space where you're touching the clitoris when it doesn't need to be touched. Like So, you know, this this cervix piece, like, a lot of women describe, their birth as, you know, we've heard these terms, orgasmic, As, sometimes when people will say it was kind of pleasurable, even though it was painful, it was pleasurable. There's this fine line between pain and pleasure. If we can take that as the foundation upon which we build our entire practice And all of the modalities, arranging them around the person and remaining in reverence for what this job is, If we can't do that, then we're going to get nowhere no matter what data we throw at it, no matter how many therapists we get involved in the conversation, The person who is inflicting the pain or the trauma or slipping into that pervy space, you're breaking people. Like, you're hurting people, And it may not be physical pain.

Nathan :

It may be all these other types of pain. But can that job be done while still remaining in reverence For what happened for this little miracle to appear inside the womb and for the to in reverence of of the many women who have had these healing experiences through an otherwise very, you know, otherwise, maybe very traumatic event. It is it is very stressful, And it can be very traumatic if that reverence isn't there. Maybe that's the missing piece. It's just a reverence for what this Whole reproductive system is capable of doing, giving you the most intense pleasure and also being a part of the most Scary experience for many women, in their life. I mean, there's this is what we're lacking, I guess, is this type of Conversation and and maybe investigation or just thoughtfulness about it.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Absolutely. I think, like, if If the context was a bit different, the the because because, yeah, so many people have had very traumatic birth experiences, And I feel like some of them would have been traumatic anyway, but then some of them might have might have, yeah, been been seen in a different light and experienced differently And wouldn't have landed as so traumatic if there had have been that container and that context of, like, reverence and thoughtfulness and, you You know, treating this person like a human and this this experience of birth as completely miraculous and sacred. Yeah. So, yeah, I really love your approach to things. And, and I would I feel like it's important to also talk about The history of obstetrics and and midwifery and things, because I feel like a lot of people just trust, you know, the medical model, the more Modern way that we birth in hospitals, they don't really question it, and they're like, well, that's the way to do it. And that's obviously, you know, the the, Wow. What am I saying? I mean, I don't think people realize that, actually, we used to have a completely different approach to birth that was more honoring, and we've we've kind of thrown that out to make it super, super clinical and convenient for doctors, basically.

Freya Graf:

Did you wanna give us a bit of a history of Yeah. Of birthing? Yeah.

Nathan :

Yeah. I guess I haven't I haven't really talked about this for a little while, but I had done a solo cast on the through the lens of of European, obstetrics, really, the the advent of of what we would call modern medicine, I suppose. Throughout that process, of course, Women caring for women, it was it it was maintained because for quite some time, the church and state, the the ruling elites, They were gonna take everything away and monopolize everything except childbirth because of this strange kind of, dilemma of men being involved in this space for the reasons we just described. Like, this seems Kind of bordering on sexual because we're talking about vulvas and vaginas and whatever. So I don't know. For whatever reason, they didn't seem to be able to navigate that. Plus, The advent of modern medicine came with a high price tag in feudalistic societies, so women caring for women was sometimes the best Women could get when they were having maybe their 4th, 5th, 6th baby. So midwives really kind of carried that torch, you know, even throughout the The dark middle ages when we had the witch hunts for 3 or 4 centuries across Europe just butchering women and children.

Nathan :

Meanwhile, the the men are standing there, and they're just watching this happen because if they were to suddenly say something, maybe they or their Family members were gonna be torched as well. So we had this really, really horrific period of time, In in the middle ages, like, when you think of 400 years, that's a long period of time where people are living in fear of being torched because and when I say torch, guys, I mean, like, Tortured to death, burned on stakes. Like, this is as brutal as you could possibly imagine humans treating one another. And to to, like, really to unpack that whole history, I think, is really, really hard. History is is not really something that many doctors, I think, Kevin invested much into. Many of us were bio biology majors or chemistry majors. I was a history I was a Hispanic language and literature student Before I even decided to be a a doctor because my wife my now wife, she and I met when we were in high school, as I mentioned. She's Mexican, and her Family members were always speaking Spanish and making jokes about me, and I could never throw anything back.

Nathan :

So it was like, well, I better understand the language, and that became my whole major by the end of college. But the reason I bring that up is is that investing a little bit of time into understanding this, even from the standpoint of reproductive justice, You know, for our black friends and family members here in the United States, like, understanding and honoring that needs to be a part of our understanding of medicine. Because if we don't look Back and see how we got here, we're gonna continue to perpetuate this narrative that medicine and especially birth belongs in the hands of men and women wearing white coats who were able to afford the sacrifice of about 10 years At a German style medical, you know, institution and then giving up, you know, the rest of their adulthood, Sort of nurturing this profession that they've sacrificed so much for. If you were somebody like me, I'm almost 40. So if if I were to say, dang, midwives do this better, that would be kind of an affront to my entire identity. And that's why I think history is so confronting for people. I was just in Montenegro, and the Balkans the history of the Balkans is So interesting. It's so complicated.

Nathan :

It sits between Europe and, you know, what we would call, like, Russia, the former Soviet Bloc, and what was the Ottoman Empire. And I'm just so fascinated by history because if you were to just look at, like, even what's happening in the Gaza strip between Israel and Palestine, the history of that region is so, so complex that to just go out Tweeting or Instagramming or posting whatever, having conversation as if you know what you're talking about based on the news headlines without appreciating the the deeply rooted, The essence of this conflict, like, it it it really doesn't do anybody any good. So trying to park yourself And put your your, what you think you know about the world on pause just for a second to appreciate that not only have women been caring for women far longer than people like me had been wielding scalpels, But that they also do it better now that we have data. To to to to know that and not be confronted, the only way you can get by is through cognitive dissonance. You're just Lying to yourself. You're lying to yourself. And you could apply that same, I guess, that same insight even to into what we've been Talking about with regards to the cervix and orgasm and pleasure in this fine line that we play as doctors to be invited into this privileged space. So I hope I did an okay job.

Nathan :

You know, I I justified your question there, but that's a this is a big part of What I think is wrong with maternity care, especially in the United States, but also in the UK and many parts of Europe where mid midwives are still being characterized as Lazy, old, stupid people that didn't get into medical school. Good thing they didn't go to medical school because there'd be more of us and less of them, and that does not do us any, I think any favors going forward?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Absolutely. And it's so interesting hearing how other cultures kind of approach birth, and I met a, a Maori woman from New Zealand the other day. She's a a nurse, and a midwife. And she says all of don't know if it's still the case, but, at least it was. All of the midwives are qualified to do home births because they still recognize that that actually, you know, is better for the for the womb the birthing person and, you know, gets better Outcomes and, you know, here, if in Australia, and I'm assuming probably similarly in the States, like, there is so much fear and judgment Around home birthing and free birthing. And, you know, if I I was speaking to a friend who's, pregnant and she was just, like, mortified at the thought of Not getting every single ultrasound and every single kind of test and checkup and all of the things because, like, god forbid, she didn't follow that, You know, medically prescribed trajectory through her pregnancy, something was Definitely gonna go wrong and happen. And like, oh my god, I can't I couldn't possibly just trust my body.

Freya Graf:

And I think it's just so Fucked. And it's like so important to remind people like, hello. Like, we have been birthing forever. Like, midwives are the shit, and they have they have had this covered for so long, You know, until all of a sudden, modern, you know, modern medicine was like, alright. Like, a male doctor's gonna roll in or male gynecologist. We're gonna Put you on your back. We're gonna put your feet up in stirrups. We're gonna do all of these very invasive, violating interventions, And it's just yeah.

Freya Graf:

It's a bit of a disaster now, but we think that that is the safest way to go. And that's what I wanna get into next It's like how safe actually are the, you know, the common interventions. And and in terms of, like, outcomes, I know there's a lot of stats that would surprise people that you're probably Cross? Hey, babe towns. So sorry to interrupt, but I simply had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that you've Gotta get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. And there you'll find And extra bits and bobs like freebies or discounts for offerings from guests who've been interviewed on the podcast, inspiring and thought provoking conversations, and support from a community of labial legends. So head over to the links in the show notes and I'll hopefully see you in there. And now back to the episode.

Freya Graf:

But first, I'd love to do this segment Get Pregnant and Die. So do you have a story about your sex ed for us? Don't have sex

Nathan :

because you will get pregnant and die.

Freya Graf:

Don't have sex with the missionary position. Don't don't have sex with standing up. Just don't do it. Promise?

Nathan :

You know, I think about this quite a bit now that I do a lot of fertility awareness training for clients. Like, I just before this podcast got on a call with a couple that's Going through the IVF journey. They've been trying now for, like, two and a half years. They've invested so much money, and then they heard me on a podcast talk about some of the, sort of magical elements of when sperm meet egg, and and, we got on a call, and I reviewed what they had been done for them, and I sort of presumed a lot of things. Now you've been to so many doctors and specialists, and now they're going to, like, a functional medicine practitioner. And I said something like, so, you know, when your cervical mucus changes or whatever, and I kinda saw blank stares, and I was like, well, you know, the Like, the stuff you see on the toilet tissue paper, and they were like, what are you talking about? And and And that was, like, that was, like, wrong for me to presume that, but I kinda just figured, man, you've seen so many people. Somebody's obviously talked to you about this, but they were checking the l h Strips. If you're listening out there, don't invest in l h strips.

Nathan :

It doesn't matter. It's not it's not important. It doesn't work. And I can go into that later if you'd like, but They were checking basal body temperature in these l h strips. And in the in the meantime, nothing else had been given to them as a means of trying to improve the chances of Conceiving. Apart from somebody starting, like, a synthetic progesterone, which can sometimes be helpful. Oftentimes, synthetic hormones don't do us any good. But, for some people, that can be the right thing.

Nathan :

Anyways, the reason I'm bringing this up is, I was like, god, how much, Easier would my job be, and how much, less emotional burden would would women and their partners be carrying If instead of showing me horrific pictures of syphilis, like syphilitic, ulcers And herpes ulcers, and there was a video. It was, like, from the 19 sixties or seventies, like, And you know that because the the guy had a you know, in the video, the dad. I don't even know if he was the dad. There was a guy, I remember, with this big bushy mustache in the photo, And the woman had a like, had not, like, shaved everything or shaped her pubic hair into any, you know, funny shaves. It was just like A real woman and a real guy, and they were happened to be on camera having a baby. And the whole purpose of this was not to talk about the beauty of birth. It was, like, Almost like, okay. Now that you've been stunned by something that you never even thought was gonna happen, go and have lunch.

Nathan :

And I remember everybody was, like, giggling and all this other stuff. What if instead Out of that 25 minute video, they introduced the basics of the physiology around menstruation and ovulation. I still meet women who don't know the difference, and that's not on them. Yeah. This is on our society not valuing this, and instead, just putting our efforts on shaming and blaming. So, That is still one of the most memorable things in my sex education, if you wanna call it that. Where it wasn't even we talked about how the baby it was just like, if you get an erect penis near a woman, this horrible thing is going to happen. And if it doesn't, you're going to get an ulcer on your penis or your, Are your are your ladies

Freya Graf:

and gentlemen? Totally. That's that is exactly what I remember. The only things that stick In my mind about my quote, unquote sex ed is, like, horrifying pictures of, like, Warty, like, totally, like, yeah. All sorts of, like, STIs on genitals, And then a video of birth that made me just go, I am never doing that. I'm never doing that. No. I'm not. Ever when I get

Nathan :

pregnant or have Sex at all. I didn't have sex until I was like, well, 18, which sounds sounds young, but, like, we had been together. My my now wife and I had been together for, like, 2 years, and we I don't even think we did, like, any heavy petting because it was, like, the fear of of health class was in us. So, anyways

Freya Graf:

Yep. Yeah. Yep. A 100%. I'm excited. Yeah. Totally relate to that experience. It was just fear mongering and, And trying to, yeah, I guess, like, push abstinence.

Freya Graf:

And also, I think it would just have been phenomenal to learn about, You know, like so I've got a I've got a an episode on fertility awareness, and using that as contraception Slash, you know, planning to get pregnant and conceive. And so, yeah, people can go back and listen to the fertility awareness one. I'll link it in the show notes. But that's something that just would have been so handy to learn about, even just knowing that you can't get pregnant every single day of the year, you know, knowing that you have a small fertile window.

Nathan :

Before residency, I still didn't know that. Like, even after medical school, I don't think I was fully aware that there's just this short little window of time.

Freya Graf:

Right. I

Nathan :

mean, that's so empowering. So empowering. It could be empowering, but instead we use shame and blame through this Protestant and Catholic lens upon which my nation was founded. That if you have sex, you're you're you're a sinner, and you're gonna have terrible, horrible things happen. Let's go. Let's turn to the film. Like, it it It's kind of blows my mind that we're still doing that.

Freya Graf:

I know. I know. Terrific. Alright. So what are your thoughts on home birth versus Free birth versus hospital birth. And, yeah, maybe give us a few, like, stats or insights into the the safety and efficacy of these different ways to birth because I think, like, too many people are Still very misinformed, very, afraid and judgmental about the thought of birthing outside of

Nathan :

Sure.

Freya Graf:

But if they understood it more, then I think they'd be surprised, you know, at the actual facts. And I'm exhausted from trying to talk to people about this, and I hate how much judgment there is. Like, you know, you are an irresponsible mother for not going to hospital or not allowing all of those interventions. Like, dare you. That's not fair to the baby. And it's like, okay. Like, get your facts fucking straight. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

So what do you got?

Nathan :

Man. Well, Let's first remember that data is not everything. You know, everybody says data, data, data. Like, I don't care how much data you have. I don't care where you went and Found your data. I don't care if it was biased research, if it was peer reviewed, if it was a meta analysis, if it was a randomized control trial, I don't really care as much as other people do about data. And the reason is that we have so much data now that even if we were to Go through and cherry pick the the data that supports our internal bias, which is what most people do when they say they're doing research. Right? A lot of books have been written.

Nathan :

I'm not gonna call it any names, but there is cherry picking galore in order to support our internal bias whether we're for or against hospital birth, for or against home birth, whatever. Data is not gonna save us from this issue. And, having said that, If we're being honest with ourselves and we were only invested in the data, you would see that for probably 85% of our Actually, pretty sick population in the United States. Most women are gonna be just fine without all of the accoutrements that come with a hospital setting. The reason that my c section rate has remained so low is because I've worked very, very hard in order to See as many horrific things as I possibly can. And that means going to 4 years of OB GYN residency. I was at a large reef regional referral center at a a hospital system called Kaiser, which is hailed as the the greatest gift to public health ever. And having worked there, I will tell you it is not the greatest gift.

Nathan :

It is the most efficient gift, but is it producing the results that we want? So before I get into that, when women have hospital births, just because they had a healthy baby and mom was alive afterwards, And, you know, they had an even an uncomplicated, unmedicated, you know, natural, physiologic, call it what you will, birth. Many of them still will tell you that Something didn't feel right. And this gets into how they were touched, how they were spoken to. Do they really feel like somebody was connecting with them? Was somebody really seeing them for who they are? This whole Story that precedes them and this whole story that's coming after this. If that wasn't there, they're gonna feel like something wasn't right. Right? But in the meantime, there's not a lot of narrative. There's not a lot of people in the major media networks, and we're not talking about all those beautiful bursts that happened outside of the hospital. Instead, we focus on the really, really bad things, and that skews our ability To ascertain risk.

Nathan :

So you heard about somebody's baby dying at home. How many times are we talking about the dead babies in hospitals? And I'm saying dead babies because I mean dead babies. We have sometimes pushed babies to the limit through unnecessary inductions. We've put women at risk for doing unnecessary c And nobody talks about that because thank god you were there because the doctor could save you. Thank god. The reason my c section rate has fallen down below 5% and has remained there even for the very high risk people that I attend to at home, in hotels, wherever, is because I've I've earned the privilege of being as hands off as I possibly can, and I still maintain the skills to save the day if something were to come, you know, come up And I can my, like, antenna are are buzzing, and it's like, it's time to go to the hospital. Something's not right here.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Nathan :

So I've earned that privilege. But I've also, Through all that experience, realize that, man, as long as I don't get in the way, usually those horrific things that everybody talks about, those don't usually happen. So the common scenario, I just got off the phone with a lady today, a client, and she had, a hemorrhage after her birth. And she said, listen. I wanna have another baby, but I'm terrified of having a home birth because I don't know if I would have survived. You know, my husband's convinced that the doctor saved my life, and he's right. She hemorrhaged. She had a chunk of placenta stuck up in there.

Nathan :

And so we walked through the whole thing, and she had a very long labor. It was never augmented. She never had an epidural. That when when the baby came out, the doctor sort of impatiently gave a tug on the cord, pushed the placenta out, and there's a big chunk missing. So she's bleeding, And the uterus doesn't ever get nice and firm. It's boggy. So the doctor fortunately was there and said, I'm worried that maybe we need to give you some medicines to help the uterus Clamped down. Those medicines didn't work.

Nathan :

We better go and get the ultrasound. There might be some stuff inside, and sure enough, there was maybe a chunk or 2 of placenta still in there. So fortunately, they're in a hospital setting. If had they needed instruments, they would have had them right down the hall. But the doctor reached up inside of the uterus, no epidural, and pulled those chunks out, gave more of those medicines to help the uterus, become tonic, And her bleeding stopped. So if you were to look at that as a headline, the doctor saved the day. Was there a reason that some of the parts of the placenta got retained? I don't know. She's not vegan.

Nathan :

She's not a smoker, and she's not diabetic. Those are the 3 things I think about with a crappy placenta. But why did we have to yank on the cord? Like, what are we worried about here? There's no reason to expedite the 3rd stage of labor. So why are you doing it? In fact, why not just leave the room and tell and ask the nurse to call you back in if there's a problem? Because the placenta is gonna come out. So when I When I attend a home birth, like, I've had many home births where I don't even well, I will make it there, but it's not like I had to really be there. But I've earned the privilege of knowing when I need to be very on. I need to be really thoughtful about something, and I need to be very honest and compassionate Whenever I recommend that I know you wanted this home birth, but I wouldn't be telling you that we should go to the hospital if I wasn't very sure that that this is not what you're gonna you know, an outcome that's you're not gonna want a dead baby, you know, whatever, hemorrhage, heart attacks, whatever. And so in the case of the placenta, had we not pulled on the on the cord, had we, had we just let it you know, sometimes I'll just let it Stay in there for an hour, 2 hours, whatever.

Nathan :

As long as there's not bleeding, why are we disrupting this this really important moment afterwards where the baby gets to coregulate and Fully form its nervous system. You know, the ventral vagal component of the parasympathetic nervous system, which is an important part. It's the I am. It's the It's the comfort. It's the when you're connecting with your partner, that's the connecting. That's the fawn piece of this flight, fight, flight, or freeze. If we don't coregulate with the baby right afterwards, we actually lead potentially to long term health consequences for this baby. We have an increased risk of That's why preterm babies that don't get to be mothered and don't get to be held, that's why they have a higher risk of dying of SIDS, preterm babies.

Nathan :

So, anyways, this whole thing is like, you've intervened, you've created a problem, and then you save the day. And now this person feels that they're compelled to have a hospital birth because had they been at home, They would have died. Maybe, but maybe not. Maybe we did something that actually led to more intervention that led to me having to save the day. And thank god the doctor did because she could have bled out. But did the doctor maybe do something? Was there something about that environment or something about her status, whatever it could be that led to that outcome, my clients don't have those things happen. Maybe they will someday. I'm sure they will, But I haven't been seeing that whenever a person is dialed in from preconception all the way through postpartum and when I'm only intervening when absolutely necessary in order to get this family through so I can clean off my hands and say, enjoy being a parent and walk away until they need me again.

Nathan :

That's a very different approach from what we see in the hospitals. So to answer your question, if I was having a baby, I might even have a free birth. I think it's fucking cool. But women caring for women, whenever people are, like, going back to our ancestral roots, you know you know, free birthing, I think that's nonsense. Like, since when is that, like, ever been a real part of our, of our, Like, societal norm that women were just like, nonsense. I'm gonna go out in the woods and do this by myself. Like, that wouldn't be safe. Like, there's no like, in no Stretch of my imagination, does that sound like the norm, the ancestral roots? If at the very minimum, you might have a woman standing outside of your cave.

Nathan :

I'm going way back here. Right? In order to make sure that predators don't come in, that other, you know, people aren't walking in on you. Like, hey. What's up? You having a baby? Like, That's what happens in the hospital, and we know that that doesn't do well. It doesn't you know, disturbing this process. So that may have been the original midwife. Obstetrics means to stand opposite of. We stole that, But that's really what a midwife used to do is to stand opposite from and just to hold space and to keep you safe so that you can go inward and do this before.

Nathan :

If you can earn the privilege of of stare steering clear of having to have your hands in every single hole at all times, And if you know, if you can, if you can, learn the art of doing nothing, which is a very active process, knowing when to put your, your, your sort of, your antenna turn you know, fine tune those antenna when you know when to intervene. That's how we get a low c section rate. That's how we Go about in the future here. But from a standpoint of where you have a baby, like in our born free program, the one I, you know, that you know so much about, I don't care where you have a baby. I just want you to make sure that you are sure about the decisions, that you're educated, you're empowered, and you're supported through community, Through compassionate touch, through hand holding, whatever that may be, I want you to feel supported. And if that means an elective c section because that feels best to you, Fuck. Yeah. Let's do that, and I'll make that as best as I can too.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I think it's So important to put the power and the decisions back into the, you know, the birthing people's hands. And, And, yeah, I know data's not everything, but people love a bit of data. And, if anyone wants to get some stats on, You know, outcomes in in home birth versus hospital birth and things like that and just feel reassured that actually the outcomes are, at least in Australia, Just as good, if not better, with home births and hospital births. There's an amazing podcast series called The Great Birth Rebellion by, couple of midwives in Australia, and that's really phenomenal. And they've got, like, all of the latest kind of research and stuff if you if you want some, Some fodder to Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, win those arguments with people that are trying to trying to, yeah, guilt or scare you out of making that decision that feels best for you.

Nathan :

Well, let let me add to that because you said and I'm gonna give you a little pushback here. When people go in thinking that there's an argument to be won, Like, you don't have to prove anything to anybody. You can say no to absolutely everything. In fact, that's a part of being an adult Because at the end of the day, that person who's arguing with you, regardless of where you wanna have your baby or what you wanna do, vaccines, no vaccines, whatever, They're not gonna have to actually own up to the consequences of those decisions. So if something bad happens to your baby because you said yes to something because they Won the argument, that's still on you. If that baby does just fine despite what that person was arguing, even if you lost it based on the data, It's still on you. You're the one ultimately who has to take care of this child for the rest of its life. There is no argument to be won here.

Nathan :

You are not gonna convince a blue voter That they're that your red candidate is so much better because of something they said in the seventies about racism or abortion or whatever. We're not gonna we're we're, like, so caught up in winning the argument when really this needs to be about what is the best for this person. How can we take care of more people and get better outcomes as a society. We are not siloed off. And if you win the argument, who cares? That that person hasn't isn't, like, suddenly now convinced that they're because they're the loser, we just we just we just start stacking data on top of one another until we're now, like, kind of Confused as to what we were even arguing in the 1st place. So I just wanted to add that in there, that

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Totally. I totally agree with that. I think though it's, It is something that does that does happen. Unfortunately, though, that, you know, pregnant people are bullied, their husbands or their Partners don't support their decision to have a home birth.

Freya Graf:

They're putting, you know, the fear of God into these people. And then, of course, as Soon as they go to 1 or 2 appointments at the hospital or with a with a doctor, they're being pressured. They're being guilt tripped. They're being, you know, groomed, basically. The system grooms the birthing person into just following the tune of the doctors or the medical professionals rather than their own bodies or intuition. And so we're quite disempowered, by being in the system. And also, like, It's very tricky to ignore those opinions and voices that are coming at us, especially from family members or a partner. So I think it's, you know

Nathan :

so hard.

Freya Graf:

Maybe not about trying to win an argument, but more just like how how will that birth experience be if, yes, You know, say, I've got a partner who really doesn't support me having a home birth. They're scared shitless, so they're not able to support me properly. I'm feeling their nervousness. I've had several appointments with, you know, medical professionals that have tried to scare me into

Nathan :

Totally.

Freya Graf:

Doing it at a hospital, you know? So then of course I've got these, you know, these energies that are really distracting and making me feel more nervous and there's a lot more pressure on this home birth all of a sudden. And so it's like, cool. I still am in my power to make that decision, but, like, I know that there's a lot of people against that, and of course, that's going to affect me. So it's just People should just get in their lane and stop having opinions about a birthing person's choice. Like, just fucking leave off, you know, and like if if It's clear that that's their choice. Support that and offer, you know, help and resources and encouragement And just don't, yeah, don't get in there with your little opinion or your fear, because, you know, she's gonna do this, And it's only gonna make it worse for her Yeah. If you're not in support of that. You know?

Nathan :

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I mean and and I I wanna ask you a question. I know it's I know you're the host, But as a this is something my wife, she's my biggest advocate and also my biggest critic. We have very, very deep heartfelt conversations Around some of these topics, and she has posed to me, this this tricky situation for women as well. You know, you're gonna go into the hospital and have a baby, you've already been conditioned for most of your life to listen to other people tell you what's right or wrong. So I'm curious, Freya, from your standpoint, How does that conditioning as a woman play into this? Like, at what point, what am I let me let me be very clear as to how I'm what I'm trying to ask.

Nathan :

It's let me just pose it as, like, a an observation. It seems to me that when a woman has been told from a very, very early age that they don't have The right to choose what happens to their body. Right? Like, they get raped, and we blame her for wearing a short skirt. I mean, like, little, little tiny things like that just stack up. Mhmm. So much so that when you're walking home at night by yourself from the bar, you have to go into this, like, appeasing mode and Smiling at people in hopes that they're not going to hurt you if you, you know, if they, if they approach you about something and you have to say no. So like now you're in labor and you're being expected to say no to an authority figure. I'm just curious, like, from your standpoint, when you hear that, Like, how does that play into how you counsel your clients around some of these these dilemmas that arise when we're trying to make decisions that feel right?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Massively. That's such a such a thing. And I think, you know, most of the clients that I have For, like, birthday brief type sessions where they're telling me about a quite a traumatic experience, like, I hear time and time and time again, like, You know, that they didn't feel like they could say no or when they were in that really you know, they had all of these ideas about what they wanted. They had voiced their desires and their intentions. But then when push came to shove and they were in this vulnerable position, they've got, you know, pain pains of, like, labor, Things like that, they just weren't able to advocate for themselves.

Freya Graf:

And because there was the fear from everyone else and also obviously from A little bit from within because, like, if you've never given birth before, holy fuck. Like, this is a big thing that is now happening in your body and all of a sudden it's all very intense And they do just flip into that, ease and appease, that kind of people pleasing, the the the handing the power over and going along with the person that seems to know what's best for you and seems to be quite, you know, Authoritarian. Like like, the the the manner is like, alright. Don't worry. I know what to do. This is what's best. This is what we're doing. And often, they're not even given Choice.

Freya Graf:

It's not even posed as a question. It's like, okay. I'm gonna do this now. Now we need to do this. And so it's very, very, very difficult To advocate for ourselves as women in certain situations anyway, because like I said, we've been groomed our whole lives To, you know, say yes to sort of smile and and go along with things, to put other people's needs before ours, to be empathetic and make sure everyone around us is okay before we are. Like, we just do this by default, you know, a lot of the time, because that's what we've kind of that's what's been expected of us our whole lives, and that's what we've been rewarded for. And then in In a birth situation, that's just amplified because, you know, the doctors know best. You, you know, you don't Wanna make a wrong move, like, there's so much at stake.

Freya Graf:

It's like we're getting dangled over us, like, the the life of our baby and ourselves. And if we make a wrong move or we go against what other people who seem to be in this position of authority and Knowledge, what they're saying and suggesting or demanding, like, what a horrific thing that would be if it didn't go our way, and then that would be our fault. And so sometimes, and this is like, this happens in the bedroom a lot. I hear this all the time. This is what I'm coaching, women in particular on a lot is like To not just go along with things because it's easier than making a scene or creating some kind of tension or, Friction. You know, so many people allow things to be done to their bodies because it's just easier than retracting the the consent that they'd previously given or, usually, they haven't even given consent. They've maybe gone home with someone, or they've found themselves in a situation. They've been okay with a bit of intimacy, but then it's moving further.

Freya Graf:

And they're like, oh, well, I mean, I'm here now. I I probably it'd it'd be too difficult to kind of, Say no now. I might as well just, like, let this happen and go along with it. And, you know, it's easier than actually standing up for myself or or or leaving Removing myself from this situation somehow. So, you know, we're having sex when we don't really wanna have sex. We're having the kind of sex that we don't wanna be having. We're we're Or, like, very, very commonly, you know, in situations that aren't particularly empowering or we're not enjoying Or even like in in marriages where you love the person, you trust them, you feel safe, you're having sex. And really commonly, it'll just, like, maybe stop Feeling good for the woman or it'll start hurting a little bit, but you're kinda like, well, I mean, I'm here now.

Freya Graf:

I might as well just let him finish. Finno. It's not pleasant for me. It's kinda hurting, but, like, Let's just finish him off and get it done with. And it's like that last 5 minutes of sex might be really unpleasant for the woman, but she lets it happen. And that's a really common example that seems harmless, But it's just another way that we're kind of you know, we're putting other people first and giving away our power. So I could rave about that forever, but I definitely feel like that happens in birth a lot. And then the woman feels really terrible afterwards because she's like, why the fuck did I let that happen? Why did I go along with that? What or why why wasn't My partner advocating for me when I was out of my mind on all of these Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Hormones and pain and fear, you know? So, Yeah. I think it's important as well to chat about how you encourage, like, fathers to get involved and, like, what they can do to support the process and make it more of an empowering experience. Excuse the interruption my loves, but I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and five our ratings for the potty because, as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people it can help. Reviews and ratings help me carry favor with the algorithmic gods and get suggested to other listeners to check out. Plus, they make me feel really good and appreciated As I continue to pour my heart and soul into creating this baby for you. And I promise I don't maz over them or anything. I mostly just Tuck them away for a rainy day when I'm filled with self doubt and existential dread about being self employed, which is fairly frequently.

Freya Graf:

So you see, leaving a review really does make a difference, and it's an easy little act of support that you can take in just a minute or 2 by either going to Spotify and leaving 5 stars for the show or writing a written review and leaving 5 stars over on Apple Podcasts. Choose your poison. Or if you're a real overachiever, you could do both. Woah, now. If you are writing a review though, Just be sure to only use G rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't actually show up. Lame. Anyway oh, what was that? Oh, you're gonna go do it right now while I wait? Okay. K.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. No. That's a great idea. May as well just quickly click that 5 star button before we get on with it and, you know, like Forget about it and get on with your day. Oh, I'm hearing them roll in. I'm hearing those 5 stars. Oh my God.

Freya Graf:

I make myself cringe. Anyway, thank you much, Lee. You're a total gem and I'll let you get back to the episode now.

Nathan :

Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you. You know, you you brought up the the this sort of practice rounds of having sex with your partner. Right? I think a lot of guys who are coming to me and coming into the Born Free Method, These are really conscious individuals, and, they they want to to take advantage of this opportunity to be a part of this really important thing, but I'm not Certain that there's even a lot of consent in consensual marriages. Totally. You know, like like, my wife has has had to tell me, Like, I don't like when you just grab my boobs when we're kissing. Like, you come up and kiss me, and I, like, rub my hands on her.

Nathan :

I'm just, like, missed her all day, and she's like, I've been touched all day. Like, I don't want To have your hands on me like that. And, like, this isn't, like, perv time. It's like my wife. I've known her since we were 16. But she still doesn't feel like there was no consent to touch me like that. And, like, I'm not going down her pants and trying all kinds of weird things. I'm just, like, giving her a little, like, A little light squeeze or a little light brush.

Nathan :

And so we've had to have this ongoing conversation, which really comes down to consent. Like, I didn't consent for you to do that. I'm covered in Sticky things from the girls all day, and I'm cooking food. Like, I don't want that. But furthermore, even when we are Having sex. Like, this is actually very much, in it really very much informs me of of, how to care for women in birth, Which it's gonna seem like a stretch, but I think we've gone far enough in this conversation for people to appreciate what what I'm about to say. When you're having sex like, we're talking about penis in vagina. Like, we're talking about heterosexuals straight up.

Nathan :

I don't know what any other sex feels like. So, When I'm having sex with my wife sometimes, it feels like she is drawing me in. Like, it doesn't even feel like I'm pushing myself. Like, I'm not penetrating her. She's actually pulling me in. And there's a subtle thing there, but you have to be very, like, Sort of a self aware and very connected to your partner to feel that. That's what real intimacy to me means. And There is a multibillion dollar lubricant industry out there.

Nathan :

I get it. Sometimes lube is really, really helpful with toys and things. But if my wife isn't, like, wet and, like, ready to go, there is no consent. And, like, for me to go and, like, slap on a bunch of lube and just shove it in there, She may feel compelled to say yes, and it's still, like, once one little time or whatever. But if that's, like, the way that you guys engage in sex, And now you're gonna transport yourself to an opportunity for you to advocate for your birthing wife. And she is now put in a position to say no. Like, she's even practiced with her most intimate partner not saying no thank you.

Freya Graf:

Totally.

Nathan :

She has never practiced That even with her most intimate partner and now you, Joe Schmo with an MD after your name, like, just because they let you in there doesn't mean you have Consent. Like, that's where this deep connection comes from. And I'll say that I used to get frustrated when we weren't having sex enough. We I mean, every couple goes through periods where you're just not having as much sex. Maybe once every couple weeks or whatever else, and you get frustrated, and then you blame the partner for not initiating and all this stuff. It took me up until very recently for my wife to really gradually coach me on sex as the consequence of communication and connection and that when that consent is there, I am I she opens me taking her. She wants me to ravish her. Like, that is actually a part of intimacy, but not without that consent.

Nathan :

And that consent is built up over Time, building rapport, building trust, specifically from the the lens of the masculine, letting her know that she can trust you to receive her Because you're so used to giving and penetrating and putting your foot through the door and all of that, that that find just Just massaging that throughout your relationship every moment of every day and letting her know she can trust you to receive her, only then is she gonna open up and draw you in. And that's when good sex happens.

Freya Graf:

I don't even think a

Nathan :

lot of couples have great sex, but it's because they haven't me. Yeah. They have no idea what intimacy really is supposed to look like. You're not entitled to have sex, mister. Sex is a consequence. That is a that is the gift of actually having been fully connected and, and, you know, like like, in resonance with one another for a period of time. And whenever that's a consistent thing, yeah, you have more sex, but you're not entitled to have sex every day because she hasn't consented to it. Yeah.

Nathan :

Sorry. That was a lot. That was a that was a that was a big bolus of, of soapbox, but, there's a lot to take.

Freya Graf:

I love it. I mean, there's Stuff that I, you know, talk to people about a lot and coach coach couples on a lot. And I think like starting to Practice saying no if this is a hard thing for you, which it is for a lot of people, especially women, starting to practice saying no with your most intimate People, so your partner and maybe family members or friends, and you can even let them know like, hey, I'm actually, I'm quite challenged by saying no and I wanna practice. So please just know that it's nothing personal. And, you know, we're not very good at receiving, though, a lot of people. A lot of the time, like, that is seen as a rejection or something you know, a personal affront. And so because people aren't great at receiving no, They don't respond, you know, very well. They don't receive that, and then the person that's trying to say no gets that, you know, negative feedback of, like, oh, that doesn't go well for me.

Freya Graf:

And that's actually it's just easier to fucking say yes. It's just actually easier because if I say no, my partner is just gonna Be a little fucking baby about it, and it's easier for me to just cop at myself. And that's that is what happens all the time. Yeah. It's like women, Especially in the bedroom, you know, giving guidance or feedback, especially men, but women do this too. Everyone is pretty bad at receiving feedback. They let it dent their egos, and then they react quite immaturely. It's not anyone's fault.

Freya Graf:

That's just we haven't been taught How to communicate maturely and how to navigate these things. And so, yeah, that's obviously reflected in in other scenarios in life. And so I feel like if you're preparing to Give birth, whether that is at home or in the in the hospital, like really practicing your no, practicing your boundaries, Practicing giving and, and not giving consent, so that you know what that Feels like so that you're not all of a sudden trying to do that for the 1st time in literally the most pressurized situation possible, because you won't stand a chance, And then you'll loathe yourself. You'll be disappointed in yourself afterwards, and you'll blame yourself. And, actually, you should not be after a very traumatic birth experience super disempowering, you shouldn't be blaming yourself because then you're feeling even worse about something that's already shit. You should be blaming The systems that are in place and the sort of people that have coerced you and groomed you and pressured you into disempowering Situations that now have left you feeling wretched. So, anyway, that's my soapbox moment. I'm stopping

Nathan :

over here. I mean, that's what you just said, that needs to be what everybody takes from the episode. That is so critical. The first time that you practice saying no thank you, and it's as simple as that. And that is very hard for even us to do when our friends call up to go to the movies. And you're like, Oh, I don't know. I got other things to do. Like, no thanks.

Nathan :

You know, I'm really tired today. I'm just gonna pass, but let me know when you go next time. Like, That little thing is so hard for us to do, let alone being a woman conditioned in the way that you just described, practicing saying no, and they haven't even said no to their most intimate partner. Like, practicing saying no when you're going into the hospital in labor, it's it's it's not it's an exercise that's dead in its tracks. It's just really, really hard to to expect that of our of our of our women. Yeah. Women in our societies.

Freya Graf:

Totally. Totally. Yeah. It's I find it hard enough when I go in for a pap smear to, like, build up The courage to ask the doctor if they can give me a little mirror and let me have a look at my cervix, you know, because that's unusual, and they give me a funny look or they're like, why do you wanna do that? And don't wanna take up time or space. You know? And that's it. Like, we just we are Yeah. Conditioned not to not to take up Too much time or space will be inconvenient or be extra in any way. Anyway, don't get me started.

Freya Graf:

I've probably got lots

Nathan :

of info about that.

Freya Graf:

What I What I would love to chat with you about is, so, yeah, you have this really low c section rate, which to me is phenomenal and something to be so proud of. But a lot of people might be a bit confused about, like, why that's something to boast about because this is an intervention that's So normalized. Like, people can elect to have them by choice now. And it's so common that, you know, a lot of people I speak to don't see the problem with it. And, You know, I've even heard women saying, like, I know people that have elected to have 1 voluntarily because they wanted to save their pelvic floors and vaginas. And, you know, just they, like, talk about it, like, get the baby out the sunroof, and, you know, I get to plan it and blah blah blah, which I kinda cringe at because, Obviously, each to their own, but I just feel like they don't really they're not super informed about this, and it's quite misguided because it's not as though a c section will necessarily save your pelvic floor.

Nathan :

For sure.

Freya Graf:

And so can you, like, elaborate on why it's actually a great thing to, if possible, avoid a c section?

Nathan :

Yes. And one thing I haven't really mentioned is people are probably like, bullshit, 5% c section rate. Yeah. 5% c section rate. And I think the number one contributor to our c sections worldwide is this continuous fetal heart rate monitoring. It has absolutely done nothing to change our statistics around cerebral palsy. It has done everything to skyrocket our c section rates. It is invalidated.

Nathan :

It does not long and modern maternity care for almost anybody. I'm just gonna throw that in there. That is the number one piece of technology that has fucked us. And I'll get into now what you're what you're describing. So, but there's a lot of good reasons not to have a c section. The the we'll talk about the pelvic floor last. Let's also start with the reality of what surgery on the abdomen entails. You have a higher risk of blood, Damage to organs, blood clots, infection, all of those things, longer postpartum recovery.

Nathan :

There sometimes is a disruption to, milk supply and latching and whatnot. So once you've done 1 C section in the abdomen, everything gets stuck together and you have what's called adhesions. That makes the 2nd time a lot harder. 3rd time, even harder. 4th time, even That is true. It is a logarithmically, increased risk to the mother with multiple c sections. There's also risks to future pregnancies. So now you have a a a a weakness in the uterine wall.

Nathan :

Of course, you could rupture your uterus. That is at extremely low risk. But what I'm more concerned about is after we've operated so many times, If that placenta grows close to the cervix, you have a chance of it growing into the wall of the uterus, and now you're looking at something on the accretive spectrum, which is the highest morbidity thing we could diagnose For the most part in pregnancy, for all comers, that means that we're gonna have to do a cesarean hysterectomy. It is a horribly bloody surgery. 3 or 4 surgeons To remove your uterus because your uterus has grown into the wall of the I'm sorry. Your placenta has grown into the wall of the uterus, and that is bad news. It can grow Through called percreta into the bladder. I mean, it can be a nightmare.

Nathan :

It's uncommon, but your risk of Rupturing after 1 c section or any number of c sections for that matter is still less than 1%, and the risk of that accretive stuff Logarithmically increases if you have a placenta previa with the number of c sections up to as high as I think 40% after 3 c sections, If I have the numbers right, but it's way higher than less than 1%. So that's a problem. So once we're doing the 1st c section, we're setting you up in many hospitals Have another and another and another, and hopefully you don't have 7 c sections because that's a challenging surgery towards the end there for for many women. Sometimes it's like no adhesions, No. Nothing's sticking together, and you're like, holy hell. We dodged a bullet there. But for the most part, they become more dangerous at with time. The other question, of course, is we'll get to the pelvic floor.

Nathan :

I promise. The other question, of course, is the microbiome to the baby. Right. Coming through the vaginal canal out through this dirty, filthy space that so many women have been told is unhygienic Has prompted us to use iodine preparations in the vulva, around the vulva, on the perineum, in the vagina before birth. Sometimes people will do that even during a c section in order to, I guess, sterilize the the vaginal space. I I don't really understand it. And most importantly, the baby has a relatively uncolonized GI tract, and the way that the baby is going to live the rest of their life, It starts the moment that that baby comes through the vaginal canal. The skin, the eyes, the nose, the mouth, the ears, the nose, all of the intestines, the anus, The skin, everything is covered with bacteria.

Nathan :

Thank god. Because that bacteria is going to keep you alive. It's gonna help you digest and absorb food. It is so critical. Add to that The disruption to the nervous system, which I'll I'll go into in a in a in a second, add to that all the vaccines and the antibiotics and everything else, and we've got a really, really big Problem because many of our chronic diseases, at least 14 out of the major 15 causes of death, including cancer, hypertension, diabetes, All of that is associated with poor gut health. So we're setting up kids for long term health issues by doing this. And, I mean, from the microbiome standpoint alone. The 3rd

Freya Graf:

point is the 3rd Sorry to sorry to interrupt you. Go figured that out a while ago that if you are taking them out the sunroof, they're not getting their microbiome or they got, like, seeded with the mother's terrier, and so they're not getting that start. So they do a bit of a, like, a bit of a smear. Do they do that in the States? I mean, it's not the same. But

Nathan :

It's not the same, but it's certainly better than nothing. I used to be people used to call me, like, the crunchy granola guy in residency because I just read the literature. There's a joke that your guests We'll appreciate. What's the best way to hide something from an OB GYN? Publish it. So I was reading and reading and reading and reading and reading and reading and reading Because I'm a I was a literature student. I love reading. I read very quickly and I'm able to retain and integrate, stuff that I read very, very, very Well, it's just something I do super well. Thank goodness.

Nathan :

But data's not everything. However, I used to carry a briefcase of papers around with me in order to justify my lack of My unwillingness to intervene in a variety of these processes. And one of those papers was a big study. I believe it was in JAMA. That's the journal of American medical of the American Medical Association. It's one of, like, the big 5 journals in the world that talked about this vaginal seeding process whereby we're gonna put a sponge in the vagina and smear the baby with it after the surgery. It's so simple, but people thought it was so, like, like, profane, like, so grossly. Or, like, what do we have to lose? It's not a Sterile environment anyways.

Nathan :

Why are we even wearing all the sterile stuff at birth? Like, it's not nothing about this is sterile. This is as raw and carnal and primal as you could possibly be. And it's good because the baby needs germs. The baby needs all of mom's germs. Baby's gonna go home to that environment. We don't need a sterile environment here. Right? Surgery is different. Like, I'm operating in the belly, Sterilize your instruments and all that.

Nathan :

But so, yeah, that is a practice that I was I was scolded for, but I was really, really an advocate get forward in residency, and I think it is becoming more popular now even though I don't do c sections anymore.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm. Mhmm. Okay. Cool. Carry on.

Nathan :

So before we get to the pelvic floor, I think it's a relevant part of this conversation is also the In the environment of an operating room, we talked a little bit about the development of the nervous system. You get your dorsal vagal, that's low heart rate, 1st trimester, you get your sympathetic tone developing. In the 2nd trimester, heart rate goes up to, like, 180, 190, like, super high. And then the ventral vagal, the 2nd leg, the higher leg of the vagus nerve develops or the vagus let's say the vagus, the parasympathetic system develops. Those branches of the vagus go up to the brain. That is the fawn response. That's how we connect and and that's how we communicate. Like, that's the that's the where we all want to be living is in ventral bagel.

Nathan :

When a baby is born into a very scary environment, the first thing we do is we take them from the mom. We put them in bright lights with masks gloves and dry them off and do all this silly stuff to it. We stick a needle in their foot with vitamin k. We put goop on their eyes, making it entirely impossible for them to get bearings around their new surroundings, and that is ever more a problem in the operating room, which is filled with noise, and it there's no more there's no more heartbeat. Like, you're not Feeling your mother's breathing or their aorta or all the gurgling of their intestines around that, they go from the amniotic universe to this very scary cold, sort of treacherous environment. So it disrupts this coregulation that is required for the baby to fully develop the rest of their nervous up to 6 months of life. Another big reason for us to not be doing as many c sections and to have a home birth. And then, the la the last one is related to the pelvic floor.

Nathan :

So we're all worried about tearing and all this other stuff. Of course, people Who have home births had a much lower chance. I have yet to place a suture in the home environment in the perineum. Yet. I have not yet had to do it Because it was such a small little skid mark that as soon as you put your legs together, the tissue starts healing almost immediately. And within Couple days, you're you're you don't even have a tear anymore. If muscle's involved, sure. Putting some sutures in, you know, can be helpful.

Nathan :

But this pelvic floor thing is interesting. Diabetics, vegans, and smokers have tears that are almost irreparable. They're really, really hard to bring back together. But the pelvic floor is not what we see tear. The pelvic floor is the deeper muscle, the levator on it. The the the the the bottom of the basket of the pelvic bowl. And that can be injured probably it's probably most likely to be injured when a woman can't feel what's happening down there. Naturally, they're gonna get into different positions.

Nathan :

They're gonna be able to push whenever they feel like pushing all of that stuff, protects the pelvic floor because She's gonna get feedback from all of those muscles in order to help, facilitate this birth through the vagina. Having said all of that, if you have if you're not well nourished, you're not moving well, you've got poor mobility, you've got poor sort of feedback within your, you know, a lot of women, let's say, you know, for example, have no sensation in the cervix. They've dissociated from their pelvis. Being connected to that helps to provide that biofeedback so that you know how to move, you know what to do. And you're gonna have a baby in the home Because you don't you know, without a lot of tearing or even pelvic floor, trauma, because you have that biofeedback. When you aren't nourished well and you're not doing any of those things anyways, it doesn't matter if you have a vaginal birth or a C section. All of that pressure, All of the pelvic, that opening and everything that happens in the 3rd trimester, that's happening regardless. So we're not protecting anything by having a c section.

Nathan :

That is a the the lamest excuse for having a c section. And I'm not saying it's lame for a person to Choose that. I mean, it's lame for the doctors to be advertising that. And many doctors do that for that reason. I feel like it's kind of crazy. So from a, from a Simple aesthetics point of view, I think, yeah, you're not gonna have a tear if you have a vaginal, a c section. But the tear is actually that's gonna heal. That's That's easily reparable.

Nathan :

The deeper trauma to those muscles, way deeper to the stuff you can see on the outside, that's what leads to the incontinence, the prolapse, and all of that. That's a nourishment issue, and that's a biofeedback issue, I think, through and through. And a breathing issue, I should say that. That's a part of that biofeedback. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I feel like people kind of it seems like they kind of miss The fact that a c section is a major, major operation that's cutting through multiple layers of muscle and organ, and, like, That's a huge thing to be trying to heal from when you're also a new parent and, you know, the impact of an operation In that area like that, you know, you talked about scar tissue and adhesions and things, but that can create more weakness, Incontinence, you know, difficulties in the pelvic floor muscles than a natural birth might have. You know? Even though we think that we're kinda getting off scot free and we're leaving our vagina completely, you know, be, with a c section, that's not actually the case. That's yeah. I don't want people to and and with all of this, like, I just wanna you know, if people have given birth or had a c section c section and had Not a pleasant or empowering experience. You know? I really, really empathize with you, and it is not your fault.

Freya Graf:

Like, I don't want people to be listening to this, Blaming themselves or feeling shitty, because, you know, like we've spoken about, you have basically groomed into These experiences, and it's it's it's almost out of your hands in a lot of ways because we just don't get the education To, you know, be in a position to advocate for ourselves. So, yeah, I really, really empathize with people that have already had a disempowering or traumatic birth experience. Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan :

I do have something to add to that, what you said about the, about the surgery to to take this one step further. I didn't know we were I was gonna I realize you were gonna go in that direction, but I think it's actually very relevant. So when we cut fascia so, Real quickly to review a c section, we actually generally don't cut through muscle. So most people are like, oh, that's great.

Freya Graf:

We don't cut

Nathan :

through muscle. Sometimes we have to to make more space, but you don't wanna cut muscle bleeds like hell. So what we generally do is we cut down through the fat, and then we see fascia, and we cut the fascia. That's the key, but we'll get there a second. Once we get down to the muscle, we put our fingers in. 1 surgeon on one side, 1 on the other, and we go 1, 2, 3, pull. And we pull everything to either side. Fortunately, you got a spinal or an epidural, but that is that would be one of that would probably be, like, as painful as anything anybody could ever go through, Like like being eviscerated, essentially.

Nathan :

So we open that up. We do our surgery, and then we let the muscles come back together, and then we close the fascia, and we close the incision, and we say you're good. The problem is every doctor in every specialty operates in a silo. We see this as a isolated part of the body. But what we understand from fascia, which is where some people would even argue through different peptides and whatnot that we store trauma, but I don't think that it's relevant for the conversation right now. What I will say is that, let's say, that your fascia on one side of your body is tighter than the other. What happens with scoliosis, the curvature of the spine left or right with little kids, is that you actually get a tightening of fascia on one side versus the other, and it actually can shift, the fascial integumentary connections to all the visceral organs. So whenever kids have bad scoliosis, We don't want them to grow up with a crooked, you know, like, leaning to the side, but we also don't want any, disruption to how their visceral organs, that's your internal organs, are working.

Nathan :

If everything is connected, which it is, otherwise, you just fall apart into a as a piece of, you know, like into a puddle, then then tightening up on one side or the other is going to Store how the visceral organs, these internal organs are laying within one another. It can impact, you know, how your fallopian tubes and ovaries are or, you know, in alignment later. Like, all of that is true. And if everything's connected, your pelvic floor and all of that integument is also connected to that big, beautiful, shiny piece of fascia that we just slice through with a scalpel. So when we repair that, I haven't looked at this evidence, but I wonder if There is a specific finding that internal body workers like yourself have found in women who have had a c section. Are you finding certain tightness or Spasm of different muscle groups that pulls organs this way or that leading to levator spasm or leading to prolapse or leading to, You know, your rethral mobility, hypermobility. I'm curious, have you have you read anything or heard about anything like that?

Freya Graf:

I haven't, I haven't read any actual studies. It's not to say there aren't any, but I'm not aware of any. But in terms of anecdotal observations, yeah. Like, totally. I mean, scar tissue Migrates to things nearby in the body. The adhesions will pull on things and tighten things here and there. And, And I have noticed, like, a high incidence of, I guess, like, challenges challenges in that area, in that reproductive area, the genital area, the pelvic floor. And so, yeah, I'm often kind of talking about, like, how we can work with that area, that scar tissue, From the outside, but also, like, internal massage being really great for starting to loosen off some things.

Freya Graf:

And it's really, Yeah. It's really tricky because it's everything's connected. There's so much going on, especially in that area. But yeah. Totally. Like, of course, it's going to affect things. Like, you can't really expect for that to not have any, like, repercussions in the body when you are slicing through, You know, quite a big and important area, of the body. So yeah.

Freya Graf:

Unfortunately, yes. Yes. Short answer. I don't have any research to back that up right now, but yeah. Hey. Me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it 5 stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I wanna mention that you can buy some really dope merch From the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote, tea, togs. Yep.

Freya Graf:

You heard that right. I even have labia lounge bathers. Or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So, if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my buy me a coffee donation page, which is called buy me a soy chai latte because I'll be the 1st to admit, I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that. And, yes, That is my coffee order. You can do a one stop donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as 3 fat ones a month. And I also have a Sunroom profile over on the Sunroom app as I've mentioned, and I also offer 1 on 1 Coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way. So every bit helps because it ain't cheap to put out a sweet podcast, into the world every week out of my own pocket.

Freya Graf:

So I will be undyingly grateful Or if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself. Salty. And, I'll pop the links in the show notes. Thank you. Later. We can actually it would be nice as well to wrap up with, like, Maybe some tips or strategies for using birth as a reclamation of our power and, like, end on a nice note of, like, How can we make this more empowering?

Nathan :

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Nathan :

I love that. That's a great final question. You know, The personal accountability piece is, I think, really helpful right now. And I think people are probably they probably think I'm gonna go one way. I'm they think I'm gonna zig, but I'm gonna zag. Here's what I have to say

Freya Graf:

about this.

Nathan :

Personal accountability or personal responsibility is something that I've received a lot of, hate mail for. Because I think people perceive that when we say, hey. There's a lot in your control, I think people flip that inside their their their their brains, And they they take on the victim role, and they say, oh, you're saying this is my fault. And, no, I'm not saying it's anybody's fault that they get this Issue happen or gestational diabetes or whatever. What I am saying is that imagine how much differently your birth could be If you claimed ownership of every single decision and every outcome of those decisions, Imagine how different your life would be if instead of outsourcing your power to other people who don't necessarily have your best interests in mind, And instead, you reclaim that power in, number 1, practice saying no thank you. But number 2, Started clean with how you're feeding yourself on a, how how you're nourishing yourself on a physical, mental, emotional, or even spiritual level, on an intimacy level, on a communication and connection to your partner, all of these levels. What if you treated this pregnancy For 9 to 10 months while you're growing this beautiful, perfect little baby, what if you said, I'm doing this my way and instead of buying this thing. I'm gonna invest in this thing.

Nathan :

I'm gonna go this path instead of going that path. What if you actually said, I'm gonna make these decisions, And I appreciate the information from this person and the recommendation from this person and, hell, even the criticism from aunt Mary or whatever. I'm gonna take all of that and just put it over here and I'm gonna take what I want from it and I'm gonna put it into the plan that is best for me, Nathan Reilly. What would your life be like if you did that for anything, let alone the maybe the most extremely important event of your life having a baby? When we start talking about accountability and responsibility, there's one way to look at it through the lens of the victim archetype, which is how many of us show up in the world. We're Afraid of somebody telling us we're wrong. We're afraid of telling somebody telling us we did it. You know, something bad, getting a slap on the wrist from Cops, whatever it is, we're all just so afraid of falling out of alignment with the rest of the the masses. The other way to look at it is As a source of empowerment for you to show up as an adult, maybe for the 1st time in your life, and I don't mean that in in a in In a nasty way, I'm saying, listen, what if you did this? What if you just said I'm in charge right now? I don't need to do that thing.

Nathan :

Thank you, but no thank you. What if you just started doing that every day in the grocery store, at the gas station, driving your car? What if you just started saying, no, I'm good. I'm going to do it my way. Everything else is going to change literally everything in your life. That's how I show up And that has taken me years to do that because of my conditioning as a child in a very Christian oriented country, with multiple bosses, multiple people telling me what I should do with my life, where I should go with my career. My parents telling me that this is right. You should be Shame for this. You you know, don't touch your your willy, like literally from day 1, when we can understand language, people are telling us what we can and can't do.

Nathan :

So if you can decondition yourself, and it is easier as a cis white male, I get that. But what if you, whoever's listening, what if you just one day just said, I'm just gonna do things my way. I'm not gonna ask permission. I'm just gonna do it my way. I'm still gonna be polite and courteous. We're not talking about walking out being an asshole. I mean, like, what if you just said, no thanks, and you just did the thing you wanted to do later today? It changes your entire outlook on life and how you Show up and help people treat you. And if that's the if you wanna have your your ideal dream birth experience, there's a lot that's out of your control.

Nathan :

But whatever things are in your control, start practicing that right now. Take accountability for every decision you make, and don't feel bad for saying no to something that doesn't feel like a hell yes from from the inside.

Freya Graf:

Yes. Yes. Preach. Definitely. Thank you. Really good advice. And I just realized I almost forgot to do the TMI segment. Do you have a really quick TMI story before I let you go?

Nathan :

Maybe, yeah, maybe this is t mine. This kinda goes back to our our, like, Sex talk. But, a lot of couples, I think, we've already kinda gotten into this, but a lot of couples, They're trying to wonder how to spice up their sex life and whatnot. And My wife and I we've been in love for a long time. You know, the, the butterflies or the like, lust kind of starts to wear off for a while. It's typical. It's normal. If you know, Somebody once told me, they were like the hottest supermodel in the world has somebody in their life who's tired of fucking them.

Nathan :

Like, it's just it's just It's just the reality. Like, it has nothing to do with how physically attractive you are or anything. It's just that you you fall into this level 2 eros, as Mark Gaffney. He's this Hebrew mystic as he describes. And then you have to do the hard work. Well, what does that hard work look like? The path of tantra is to work towards a place where you are Fulfilling sex through love, not fulfilling love through sex. And that's the hard work of of of being a Parent and being a partner and staying in a monogamous relationship with a person you love so dearly, but still you wanna have sex more. You wanna do these things.

Nathan :

If you're a man listening, My TMI is that I recently decided that I'm going to every time my wife has something she's concerned about, I'm gonna start breathing with her. I'm just gonna breathe. Like, I'm gonna see if I can breathe her in, like, get my breathing on the same level as her. And it's almost like witchcraft. Like, suddenly, we're connecting, and I think it's because it's maybe I'm putting my presence, my focus on something else. But the next step to that is We've been so deeply connected now for some time that I've also been willing to realize that she wants me to initiate having sex. So I've recently just started saying when I wanna have sex, I have sex with my wife. And I grab her and I kiss her and I touch her and there's all this foreplay and then we have awesome sex Over and over and over and over again.

Nathan :

This has been our new pattern. And all that it required was for me to not play the victim and just It kinda goes back to the personal accountability piece. It's like I I told her. She was like, what? Are you cheating on me? Like, what's happening here? I was like, no. I just decided every time I wanna have sex with you, I'm just Going to start initiating that early on, and then I'm gonna have sex with you. And she's like, that's what I have always wanted. Like, she doesn't need a new stranger at the bar or an orgy at Burning Man. She doesn't need any of that that really fun, sexy stuff.

Nathan :

She actually just wants The person she loves the most to see her, be willing to receive her, and then to take her. And I the reason I say it's TMI is because I don't think There's a lot of people out there talking about this. Like, it's not just a matter of of, like, hey, like, you you in the mood tonight? Like, That's not how this works, and it took me almost 40 years to realize that. So, sex in the Riley household been really great. That's my TMI.

Freya Graf:

Fuck. Yeah. Get it. I'm stoked for you both. Yeah. And it it's like, you know, some people might be like, oh, A bit, triggered by by that, but so many women do want to be taken. And it it isn't that there's no consent or anything like that. It's not disrespectful at all.

Freya Graf:

It's Respectful at all. It's about ravishing, and it also sort of, aligns with how a lot of women, the majority of women, have Responsive desire and arousal patterns, which means we aren't initiating as much, and we do need the other person in the equation to initiate and, like, kind of convince us, like, convince our bodies, like Very individual. Into that space of arousal. Yeah.

Nathan :

Yeah. Yeah. I think she wanted to be like, I think think many women, not every woman for sure. Not many women might feel very triggered by what I said, and I I acknowledge that. But this is my story. This is me and my wife.

Freya Graf:

Oh, yeah.

Nathan :

And we have Had a lot of sex in our life, and it fizzles out. And then it and then you have I had to sort of sort of acknowledge what Did she really want from me? And I was feeling bad that she wasn't initiating. And I told her, I was like, you never initiate. But what she actually wanted was to feel Like, she wanted me to lust for her. She, like, wanted me to be excited to have sex. And maybe the tables will turn. Right now at this sort of chapter in our lives. That's it means a lot.

Nathan :

Like, we've had our kids. Like, we have our family. Like, we still want to be Those people too, and that's okay. You're not you're not, like, you're not, like, undesirable now that you're a mom.

Freya Graf:

And I

Nathan :

think a lot of women feel that way. She wanted to be desired. So there was a big part of that, and a lot of consent and foreplay and everything else

Freya Graf:

as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. I think so many people will relate to that a lot. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time and your knowledge and your Personal stories. I'm gonna put links to your work in the show notes and everything like that.

Freya Graf:

I really wanna, do another little plug to This new HPV program, is it clean and clear? Am I getting that right?

Nathan :

Clear and free. Clear and free.

Freya Graf:

Clear and free. Oh god. Sorry. Sounds like a

Nathan :

Tissue brand new. Like some sort of new butane product or something.

Freya Graf:

Totally. Yeah. Which I'm really, yeah, really excited about because, yeah, HPV is something that I'm I've battled with, and have done an episode about healing that naturally ages ago. But, yeah, I would love to chat with you about that in a in a future episode. Is there anything you wanna leave us with or send us to before we wrap up?

Nathan :

No. On Instagram, that's probably the easiest way to reach me. Yeah. Pretty much everything I do is on Instagram. That's, like, kind of my landing page. And I've got all the websites and everything, but everything's found there. Nathan Riley, o b g one n, is my name there. So come and find me.

Nathan :

Send me a DM. If something if I said something you like, tell me. If I said something you don't like, please tell me. I'm still working through this as a regular guy trying

Freya Graf:

to to

Nathan :

navigate this very complicated story of reproductive health. So I appreciate your time and having me and and, and, thank you.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Thank you so much. And that's it, darling hearts. Thank you for stopping by the labia lounge. Your bumgroove in the couch will be right where you left it, Just waiting for you to sink back in for some more double l action next time. And in the meantime, if you'd be a dear and subscribe, Share this episode or leave a review on Itunes, then you can pat yourself on the snatch because that, my dear, is a downright act of sex positive feminist activism. And you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify, and destigmatize with this here podcast. Also, I'm always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered or guest suggestions.

Freya Graf:

So feel free to get in touch via my website atfrerograph.com or say hey over on Insta. My handle is freya_graf_ymt, and I Seriously, hope you're following me on there because damn, we have fun! We have fun! Anyway, later labial legends. I'll see you next time.